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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 12-07-2024

There isnt much evidence to suggest that the Nkhulus ousted the Avocas. Its more likely the Avocas just realized what they are up against and unlike the Gijimas decided to vacate their terrirory. (Only to then end up in a fight with another group resulting in he demise of one of them). The Nkhulu situation is thus pretty comparable with the Kambula one. A large coalition surrounded by smaller ones and as a result can dominate their region and local prides without putting much effort in it. So they dont feel much of a need to be agressive and defensive which is in turn exploited by the smaller neighbouring groups. Which may chase them around a bit, but are unlikely to do any lasting damage aslong the group sticks together. 

This makes them kind of a wild card and the conflict can go any direction. They can choose to vacate their territory for Kruger, disapearing from our radar. They can choose to move up deeper into sabisands, pushing out the Nwas, Gijimas or PCmales. Depending on where choose to hang out next. Or they could be perfectly happy where they are now and stay there for years.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 12-07-2024

Plus the southern avocas where up against 7 males not 5 and I think it was before the others got sick

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 05:05 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: There isnt much evidence to suggest that the Nkhulus ousted the Avocas. Its more likely the Avocas just realized what they are up against and unlike the Gijimas decided to vacate their terrirory.

Those two statements are contradicting each other. The Avocas couldn't take the pressure from them and decided to leave, that's THE definition of being ousted. Are we only cherry picking takeovers where there's bloodshed or something?

(12-07-2024, 05:05 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Nkhulu situation is thus pretty comparable with the Kambula one. A large coalition surrounded by smaller ones and as a result can dominate their region and local prides without putting much effort in it.

The Kambulas haven't dominated anyone though. The Mantimahle's, RRM, Ndzhengas have all had their way with the Kambulas at one or another. They don't even have a territory, hell the SBDMs have a better resume than the Kambulas at this point. Nkhulus were 3 fit guys out of 6 plus an older male who aged pretty badly, and they put enough pressure on the strongest duo in S. Avocas to make them vacate. Kambulas aren't even in the conversation till they get a territory and pride, to me they are in the NYM/Khanya, Kruger/S. Avoca tier.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 05:11 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Plus the southern avocas where up against 7 males not 5 and I think it was before the others got sick

They were 7 with 2-3 fit males and an older male. I think that's comparable to 4 healthy Kambulas. They were definitely sick back then though.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 05:41 AM)sik94 Wrote:
(12-07-2024, 05:05 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: There isnt much evidence to suggest that the Nkhulus ousted the Avocas. Its more likely the Avocas just realized what they are up against and unlike the Gijimas decided to vacate their terrirory.

Those two statements are contradicting each other. The Avocas couldn't take the pressure from them and decided to leave, that's THE definition of being ousted. Are we only cherry picking takeovers where there's bloodshed or something?
Yes, because there is a huge difference between an invading coalition attacking and removing the resident coalition and the resident coalition deciding to flee allowing the invading group to move in without much issue. 


Quote:The Kambulas haven't dominated anyone though. The Mantimahle's, RRM, Ndzhengas have all had their way with the Kambulas at one or another. They don't even have a territory, hell the SBDMs have a better resume than the Kambulas at this point. Nkhulus were 3 fit guys out of 6 plus an older male who aged pretty badly, and they put enough pressure on the strongest duo in S. Avocas to make them vacate. Kambulas aren't even in the conversation till they get a territory and pride, to me they are in the NYM/Khanya, Kruger/S. Avoca tier.
Its not about scores, but about behavoir.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Guillermo94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 05:41 AM)sik94 Wrote:
(12-07-2024, 05:05 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: There isnt much evidence to suggest that the Nkhulus ousted the Avocas. Its more likely the Avocas just realized what they are up against and unlike the Gijimas decided to vacate their terrirory.

Those two statements are contradicting each other. The Avocas couldn't take the pressure from them and decided to leave, that's THE definition of being ousted. Are we only cherry picking takeovers where there's bloodshed or something?

(12-07-2024, 05:05 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Nkhulu situation is thus pretty comparable with the Kambula one. A large coalition surrounded by smaller ones and as a result can dominate their region and local prides without putting much effort in it.

The Kambulas haven't dominated anyone though. The Mantimahle's, RRM, Ndzhengas have all had their way with the Kambulas at one or another. They don't even have a territory, hell the SBDMs have a better resume than the Kambulas at this point. Nkhulus were 3 fit guys out of 6 plus an older male who aged pretty badly, and they put enough pressure on the strongest duo in S. Avocas to make them vacate. Kambulas aren't even in the conversation till they get a territory and pride, to me they are in the NYM/Khanya, Kruger/S. Avoca tier.
Hi may Southern Avoca rest. No Southern Avoca male lions came back when seven male lions were together. The comment is not like you say contradicting. Southern Avoca male lions were away and came back. They must of been with other lionesses and is where they must of gone after being around Nukhulus. Ousted the Southern Avoca male lions were not chased. They were not around Nukhulus male lions. The Southern Avoca male lions must of fought older male lions where lionesses they liked; male lions like Southern Avoca male lions must of not liked and aggressive with other male lions.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 12-07-2024

I’m with you 100% nobody ousted the southern avocas they left… are we really gonna fight 7 males no so they left

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ngonya - 12-07-2024

vacate your territory under the pressure of a coalition that outnumbers you is pretty much getting ousted.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 12-07-2024

We are just arguing semantics here. The point is, you really cant compare a takeover where the territories are exchanged after a battle with one where one side decides to leave.
As the later gives us no information about how the winner would have performed in a fight.

For all we know the combined pressure of the Avocas and Gijimas would have been enough to deter the Nkhulus from settling there. Perhaps they may have gotten opportunities to pick them off one by one or it would be the Avocas that would be wiped out. We now can never know for sure as the confrontation never happened. So we cant tell how good of a fighter they are.

Not that I blame the Avocas though. The odds were very much against them.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 06:22 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Yes, because there is a huge difference between an invading coalition attacking and removing the resident coalition and the resident coalition deciding to flee allowing the invading group to move in without much issue. 

By that logic the Southern Matimbas weren't ousted either when the BBoys pushed them out. This is an odd definition for what you consider being ousted.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Guillermo94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 07:22 AM)Ngonya Wrote: vacate your territory under the pressure of a coalition that outnumbers you is pretty much getting ousted.

Hi I just do not agree or think that is what happens. Southern Avoca male lions came to Nukhulus. Also I do not think all Nukhulus were strong and healthy? Nukhulus male lions were younger. Maybe they did leave like Matimbas, but the Southern Avoca lions were with other lionesses. Southern Avoca male lions were still very strong what would be the difference with Gijima male lions? They go back and forth. Avoca male lions may have came back; I just think Soutehrn Avoca male lions did not just leave like how it is said because of pressure of Nukhulus. Southern Avoca male lions may have came back like Gijima male lions back and forth, but Nukhulus were younger and not healthy? It is why I believe they may just had interest with other lions, lionesses and male lions fought.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Guillermo94 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 08:31 AM)Guillermo94 Wrote:
(12-07-2024, 07:22 AM)Ngonya Wrote: vacate your territory under the pressure of a coalition that outnumbers you is pretty much getting ousted.

Hi I just do not agree or think that is what happens. Southern Avoca male lions came to Nukhulus. Also I do not think all Nukhulus were strong and healthy? Nukhulus male lions were younger. Maybe they did leave like Matimbas, but the Southern Avoca lions were with other lionesses. Southern Avoca male lions were still very strong what would be the difference with Gijima male lions? They go back and forth. Avoca male lions may have came back; I just think Soutehrn Avoca male lions did not just leave like how it is said because of pressure of Nukhulus. Southern Avoca male lions may have came back like Gijima male lions back and forth, but Nukhulus were younger and not healthy? It is why I believe they may just had interest with other lions, lionesses and male lions fought.
There was a video of Southern Avoca with lionesses before. Is Southern Avoca male lions interest before Nukhulus.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 08:01 AM)sik94 Wrote:
(12-07-2024, 06:22 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Yes, because there is a huge difference between an invading coalition attacking and removing the resident coalition and the resident coalition deciding to flee allowing the invading group to move in without much issue. 

By that logic the Southern Matimbas weren't ousted either when the BBoys pushed them out. This is an odd definition for what you consider being ousted.

They chased eachother back and forth and the Matimbas left so technically yes since if the Birmingham males didn’t arrive they probably wouldn’t have left so I guess same with the avocas but they left on top they beat up the intruder and then left so it’s not a real oust but again if the nkhulus didn’t arrive would they have stayed?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 04:19 AM)sik94 Wrote: I don't think that's a valid argument against the Nkhulus who ousted the strongest duo in Sabi Sands despite having 4 sick males and became territorial.

Nkhulus didnt look sick back then, except 6th male.

They become very skinny and started limping after they ousted S.Avocas towards late 2023 (they started to lose condition around September/November).

We litteraly where "shocked" here about their condition now as they were territorial males, while when they where nomads, they looked in top condition.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - NLAL11 - 12-07-2024

Londolozi blog - How and why do lions roar?

https://blog.londolozi.com/2024/12/05/a-wild-calling-how-and-why-do-lions-roar/

Interesting comment on how lions roar during a hunt to psychologically intimidate prey. Never seen that happen but doesn't mean it has never happened.