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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-29-2024

I disagree, I have nothing against the PCMs but I’m not gonna let all these cubs start to disappear and each time just say ‘well these things happen.’ I’m not even necessarily saying the recent deaths from Tsalala Pride are on them, the stability part was just me speaking in general and one that most of us should agree with. 

With the Mhanegi Pride incident against the Kambulas we can for sure blame the PCMs, as it’s highly likely the Ndzengas were actually the ones to kill the cubs. Let’s not forget they were chased into Londolozi by Khanya and NK. Now are territorial disputes between prides common, yes, and they ofc lead to the loss of cubs / other pride members, but if a pride is getting pressured by two different sets of males and their own dominant / former dominant males aren’t there to help, how can we not put any blame on them.

As we know they abandoned Mhangenis to attempt a takeover of Nkuhuma Pride, a ridiculous takeover at that. Atleast one female gave birth to a single cub and another was also rumoured to but we never seen this cub, PCMs didn’t pay one visit to this cub as far as we know and yet it died pretty much as quick as it was born. Did it die through the fact it was already looking weak, and was rejected by its pride, or with the return of the Kambula 4, we don’t know. 

And then to top it off, u have the Mhangeni / Ximhungwe skirmish that PCMs clearly weren’t involved in and then possibly two separate instances which also led to Tsalala Pride losing cubs. 

All these instances and PCMs either arrived late after a cub was already lost or didn’t arrive at all. I have nothing against the PCMs, I think they’re great pride males to Ximhungwes and I wanted them to takeover Nkuhuma Pride after raising Mhangenis if it was still free for the taking.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-29-2024

Kruger Male yet again



RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 10-29-2024

@KM600 

You are "expecting" too much from territorial males to be involved in every day prides life, they are not 24/7 with their prides to be there when something goes wrong.

I dont think PCMs are spending less time with their prides than idk Ndhzengas or Gijimas, or that more time nomads spend in PCMs territory that they are in theirs.

As you said, they abandoned Mhangenis while ago, and now you are saying why they dont protect those cubs? Well they wont because they abandoned them.

As for pride clashes, this happens always regardless of territorial males, Othawas, Ximhungwes and Mhangenis clash numerous times a year, they did before PCMs and will after them.

Msuthlus killed Styxs female, SP killed Styxs female, under Gijimas, and I dont see people blaiming Gijimas.

Or people blaiming Ndhzengas when they abandoned Styxs, and with Kambulas even attacking them shortly after, Kambulas killed few of them.

You can find examples like this for every coalition.

Also blaiming for Tsalalas losses is even worse, she is solo lioness rising 3 small cubs? Unless males are 24/7 with her, ofc that this task is almost impossible, he mother lost 2 cubs early on, SP female also lost 1 cub early on, theres prob no lone lioness who rised cubs alone without any losses..

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 10-29-2024

Earlier they were overrated and praised through the roof. Now we are clearly seeing the limits of the PCmales, people are probably jumping to the other extreme of neglectfull males deliberatly endangering their own cubs.
In reality they are just a duo of two males given access to way to much prides than they can handle. So they abandoned some and obviously cannot be everywhere they are needed. Lions also arent given an How to lion for lions guide. So they have their flaws that they need to work on. But so do the other coalitions. 

Though so far they are only indirectly responsable for the cubs that died. Sure if they only had the Mangheni pride to look over their cubs would be safe. But that would likely have resulted in problems elsewhere and the death of cubs.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - T_Ferguson - 10-29-2024

@KM600
because it is utterly ridiculous how on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and other forums, people accept sensationalist rumours without any critical thought or reasoning.

Welcome to planet earth 2024....  The more ridiculous the more it's believed.  And Yes, I fall for it sometimes too, and sometimes even idiotically repost it.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Vengeous - 10-29-2024

(10-29-2024, 04:27 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Earlier they were overrated and praised through the roof. Now we are clearly seeing the limits of the PCmales, people are probably jumping to the other extreme of neglectfull males deliberatly endangering their own cubs.
In reality they are just a duo of two males given access to way to much prides than they can handle. So they abandoned some and obviously cannot be everywhere they are needed. Lions also arent given an How to lion for lions guide. So they have their flaws that they need to work on. But so do the other coalitions. 

Though so far they are only indirectly responsable for the cubs that died. Sure if they only had the Mangheni pride to look over their cubs would be safe. But that would likely have resulted in problems elsewhere and the death of cubs.

Thank you, see that's a level-headed take I can get behind. PCMs had this aura of invincibility initially due to their size, but people are now realising that size doesn't matter if you're unable to be present all the time (which applies to all male lion coalitions in Sabi Sands right now). But this talk of them being awful and causing instability... it seems people don't have a very good memory. The West was an utter mess until they came in and imposed themselves there. They've fallen short, but there are only Mangheni cubs, Ximungwe cubs, and potentially even Othawa cubs to speak of because of them. It's not black and white for them - in some instances they've been great pride males, in other instances they're sorely lacking (e.g. the Mangheni pride). But nuance is very important to this characterisation.

I wonder whether the reason they don't stick around with their prides long enough (thinking specifically about NK Breakaways and Manghenis) is also because of their upbringing - they were less than two year olds when they were flushed out of the Plains Camp pride. Perhaps influenced their ideas of when exactly lions reach adulthood.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Rui Ferreira - 10-29-2024

(10-29-2024, 05:35 PM)Vengeous Wrote:
(10-29-2024, 04:27 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Earlier they were overrated and praised through the roof. Now we are clearly seeing the limits of the PCmales, people are probably jumping to the other extreme of neglectfull males deliberatly endangering their own cubs.
In reality they are just a duo of two males given access to way to much prides than they can handle. So they abandoned some and obviously cannot be everywhere they are needed. Lions also arent given an How to lion for lions guide. So they have their flaws that they need to work on. But so do the other coalitions. 

Though so far they are only indirectly responsable for the cubs that died. Sure if they only had the Mangheni pride to look over their cubs would be safe. But that would likely have resulted in problems elsewhere and the death of cubs.

Thank you, see that's a level-headed take I can get behind. PCMs had this aura of invincibility initially due to their size, but people are now realising that size doesn't matter if you're unable to be present all the time (which applies to all male lion coalitions in Sabi Sands right now). But this talk of them being awful and causing instability... it seems people don't have a very good memory. The West was an utter mess until they came in and imposed themselves there. They've fallen short, but there are only Mangheni cubs, Ximungwe cubs, and potentially even Othawa cubs to speak of because of them. It's not black and white for them - in some instances they've been great pride males, in other instances they're sorely lacking (e.g. the Mangheni pride). But nuance is very important to this characterisation.

I wonder whether the reason they don't stick around with their prides long enough (thinking specifically about NK Breakaways and Manghenis) is also because of their upbringing - they were less than two year olds when they were flushed out of the Plains Camp pride. Perhaps influenced their ideas of when exactly lions reach adulthood.

Thats a very interesting take...
Could that explain why some males let sub adults stay with the pride until their 4years old, some 3 and others even 2 
Very interesting indeed

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 10-29-2024

(10-29-2024, 04:27 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Now we are clearly seeing the limits of the PCmales, people are probably jumping to the other extreme of neglectfull males deliberatly endangering their own cubs.

I don't like these anthropomorphic human terms such as neglectful or deliberately being applied to lions, let alone purposesly endangering their cubs. It's lions being lions, we don't know why the BDM left his brother, we don't know why some coalitions abandon prides after 2 years while others stay with the same prides for multiple generations. I have a big issue with attributing intention to actions of wild lions and then using that to 'judge' them to be 'good' lions or not, whatever that means.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 10-29-2024

They are still living animals forced to make decisions with consequences. While we cannot judge them to human moral standards. It is fair to judge them on how their decisions impact their lives or attempt to puzzle together what drove an animal to such choices. Neglect and deliberately are not human terms, they are just descriptive terms of behaviour in general. Otherwise one would have to argue that lions don't hunt, sleep or eat. As those too are human terms. While they obviously do these things with intend.

For example, a lioness that constantly disrupts hunts is clearly doing something that negatively impacts the pride she is in. It is fair to say she is a bad huntress.
It is reasonable to look into what may be causing her behaviour. Which may for example be a bad leg, but also her being to young to properly hunt yet. Both options result into an vastly different perspective on the situation.

If we go by, lions being lions. It would just shut the door to ever understanding these animals and we wouldn't have nearly the amount of knowledge of animal behaviours we have today.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 10-29-2024

I mean the gijimas have only lost 1 cub but 2 adult females the plains camp males have lost 2 females and 5+ cubs I believe

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 10-29-2024

The Gijimas don't have to juggle over six prides at odds at eachother.
While the Gijimas are different in some aspects than the PCmales obviously. I doubt they too could prevent these sorts of incidents happening if they swapped places.

The only really odd thing is that it all happened in such a short timespan really. Had these been spread out over a year or so. I doubt we would be having this discussion today.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 10-29-2024

(10-29-2024, 11:04 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Gijimas don't have to juggle over six prides at odds at eachother.
While the Gijimas are different in some aspects than the PCmales obviously. I doubt they too could prevent these sorts of incidents happening if they swapped places.

The only really odd thing is that it all happened in such a short timespan really. Had these been spread out over a year or so. I doubt we would be having this discussion today.

Gijimas are in similar position, they have 3 growing prides on small territory, future clashes and cub loses will defiently occure, weaker pride (most likely Styxs fo now) will have hard time rising cubs.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 10-29-2024

The plains camp males control ximhungwe and tsalala pride that’s it mhangeni pride and nkuhuma breakaways have been abandoned nkuhuma pride doesn’t count they’re with different males all the time and the othawas… haven’t seen them in a long time. So out of 4 prides not 6 and gijima 3 prides but still

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 10-30-2024

Yes, but for the sake of argument, if they wanted to intervene where people expect them too. That would be what they are up against.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-30-2024

Londolozi new blog recognising Khanya and NK as a coalition.

“In the dynamic and ever-changing world of lion behaviour, coalitions among male lions are often fleeting, with rivalries and power struggles causing constant shifts among different prides. Yet, the emergence of a new partnership between two formidable males, the Talamati male and the Nkuhuma male, offers a fascinating glimpse into the complexities of lion dynamics at Londolozi Game Reserve.

The partnership between the Nkuhuma Male and Styx Male in 2021 was short-lived after the Styx Male mysteriously died, leaving the Nkuhuma Male to wander nomadically, despite being in his prime at around eight years old. But as 2023 came to a close, the Nkuhuma Male was seen more frequently with two similarly aged Talamati Males. Fast forward to the end of 2024—after the unfortunate death of one of the Talamati Males— the remaining Talamati Male and Nkuhuma Male have found each other once more.

A New Alliance

Both the Talamati and Nkuhuma Prides are well-known within the Sabi Sands ecosystem. What makes this new alliance particularly intriguing is its historical context. Back in 2007, when the Mapogo Males took over from the Manyelethi Males, the Talamati Pride broke away from the Nkuhuma Pride. So, in many ways, this union of the Talamati and Nkuhuma males feels like a full-circle moment, bringing together bloodlines that split apart all those years ago.

It’s only in recent months that these two powerhouse males have truly come together, forming an unexpected but potentially powerful coalition. Unlike many lion coalitions that arise out of necessity or convenience, this bond between the Talamati Male and Nkuhuma Male seems to be rooted in mutual respect and shared interests. Their partnership could dramatically alter the dynamics of male lions in the southern parts of Londolozi, especially as both lions are now in their prime, the critical years for establishing territory and pride control.

Strength in Unity

Lion coalitions are typically made up of related males, often brothers, who combine their strength to dominate larger areas, secure mates, and fend off rivals. What makes the Talamati and Nkuhuma Coalition especially intriguing is that they are not brothers, yet have forged a strong bond regardless of their different genetic backgrounds. Their connection hints at the flexibility and unpredictability of lion relationships, despite their bloodlines’ split in 2007.

As both males continue to mature, their physical power and territorial knowledge will increase, boosting their chances of securing territory and taking over prides.

Rivalries and Challenges Ahead

While the future looks promising for this new coalition, the road ahead will not be without challenges. Alliances between male lions are constantly tested and shifting. With the Plains Camp Males to their north and west, the Gijima Males to their south, and the Ndzhenga Males to their north and east, the question remains: can this new coalition carve out territory in such a competitive landscape?

Adding another layer of complexity is the presence of lionesses and the drive for reproductive success. Often, coalitions dissolve when individual males become more focused on fathering offspring or asserting dominance over specific prides of females. How these two navigate the delicate balance between unity and personal ambition will be key to their long-term success. Right now, most prides have comfortably settled into the territories of existing dominant coalitions, so it remains to be seen where the Talamati and Nkuhuma Males will find their place.

What the Future Holds

Lion coalitions are ever-changing, and predicting their future is tricky. Will the bond between the Talamati and Nkuhuma Males stand the test of time, or will the pressures of competition, pride dynamics, and the desire for dominance pull them apart? Only time will tell.

For now, we watch with keen interest as these two nomadic males begin a new journey together.“


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