+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Tiger (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-tiger)
+----- Thread: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) (/topic-the-java-tiger-panthera-tigris-sondaica)
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) - phatio - 04-25-2023
(04-13-2023, 07:09 PM)peter Wrote: PHATIO
Hello there my friend! Long time no see. How's life in Indonesia?
Before commenting on the video, I need some answers to questions.
1 - Tell me about the location. Is it a reserve or a wild mountain in an in habited region?
2 - If it's a reserve, is there a project going on?
3 - Do biologists know about this region?
4 - What are the villagers saying? Are there are rumours about big cats? Since when?
5 - Tell me about the four men. Are they experienced? What were they doing there? What was their aim?
6 - The translation is not good over here. Can you make a summary of what the men said and thought? Why did they leave?
7 - Any news about big cats in eastern Java?
Many thanks for posting the video. When I'm done with Amur tigers and bears (soon), I want to discuss Sunda tigers. I bought a few books some years ago. All of them were written by the Dutch a long time ago.
hello Peter, I'm fine thank you. yea its been a while, I'm sorry been very busy lately
1. it's a national park, probably hold the highest number of javan leopard in the island. suprisingly its very close to Jakarta, so its a very popular hiking destination (outside the main core area ofc). the video probably took place near the core area via traditional route.
2. as far i know, atleast there is a project of monitoring javan leopards and other wildlife with camera trapping.
3. yes they do. but i dont know any other project in there, except for the javan leopard as i said before.
4. not only from this mountain, rumours coming from many other reserves every years. but thats it, no hard evidence to back it up. i can give you tons of articles of tiger sighting here in java, but mostly just testimony from a witness only.
5. Actually, I don't know about them. someone send me link of the video, and i said to myself this could be real. their gesture looks natural to me. who knows. thats why i ask your opinion. after a brief check from his channel, i conclude the guy is a youtuber about the wild birds from this mountain. the other guys are wild bird hunters, yeah its illegal, but... i think you know how the law in a third world country.
6. they spoke mainly in sundanesse (west javan origin), so i didn't understand. from the narration he said they just arrived when they heard the roar. fyi the youtuber guy once accidentally met a leopard in this jungle and then the spoted cat running away imediately. this time is different, the roar is getting closer, as if the animal challenges them, so they decided to back off. they even leave one cellphone and other valuable equipment behind because they were too afraid to take it.
7. just rumours as always. good news is the authority of meru betiri and other reserves starting to use camera trap to monitor their area, so finger crossed.
so what do you think about the video peter? at the beginning of the video you can see the portait of this mountain with its dense jungle bellow it. and when the footage started, you can clearly feel how a remote jungle in java realy look like.
about the book of sonda tigers written by the Dutch, ofc thats very interesting to me.
can't wait to see your post my friend
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) - peter - 04-26-2023
(04-25-2023, 08:39 PM)phatio Wrote:(04-13-2023, 07:09 PM)peter Wrote: PHATIO
Hello there my friend! Long time no see. How's life in Indonesia?
Before commenting on the video, I need some answers to questions.
1 - Tell me about the location. Is it a reserve or a wild mountain in an in habited region?
2 - If it's a reserve, is there a project going on?
3 - Do biologists know about this region?
4 - What are the villagers saying? Are there are rumours about big cats? Since when?
5 - Tell me about the four men. Are they experienced? What were they doing there? What was their aim?
6 - The translation is not good over here. Can you make a summary of what the men said and thought? Why did they leave?
7 - Any news about big cats in eastern Java?
Many thanks for posting the video. When I'm done with Amur tigers and bears (soon), I want to discuss Sunda tigers. I bought a few books some years ago. All of them were written by the Dutch a long time ago.
hello Peter, I'm fine thank you. yea its been a while, I'm sorry been very busy lately
1. it's a national park, probably hold the highest number of javan leopard in the island. suprisingly its very close to Jakarta, so its a very popular hiking destination (outside the main core area ofc). the video probably took place near the core area via traditional route.
2. as far i know, atleast there is a project of monitoring javan leopards and other wildlife with camera trapping.
3. yes they do. but i dont know any other project in there, except for the javan leopard as i said before.
4. not only from this mountain, rumours coming from many other reserves every years. but thats it, no hard evidence to back it up. i can give you tons of articles of tiger sighting here in java, but mostly just testimony from a witness only.
5. Actually, I don't know about them. someone send me link of the video, and i said to myself this could be real. their gesture looks natural to me. who knows. thats why i ask your opinion. after a brief check from his channel, i conclude the guy is a youtuber about the wild birds from this mountain. the other guys are wild bird hunters, yeah its illegal, but... i think you know how the law in a third world country.
6. they spoke mainly in sundanesse (west javan origin), so i didn't understand. from the narration he said they just arrived when they heard the roar. fyi the youtuber guy once accidentally met a leopard in this jungle and then the spoted cat running away imediately. this time is different, the roar is getting closer, as if the animal challenges them, so they decided to back off. they even leave one cellphone and other valuable equipment behind because they were too afraid to take it.
7. just rumours as always. good news is the authority of meru betiri and other reserves starting to use camera trap to monitor their area, so finger crossed.
so what do you think about the video peter? at the beginning of the video you can see the portait of this mountain with its dense jungle bellow it. and when the footage started, you can clearly feel how a remote jungle in java realy look like.
about the book of sonda tigers written by the Dutch, ofc thats very interesting to me.
can't wait to see your post my friend
Before discussing the video you recently posted, I want to tell you I consider the photographs you posted some years way more important. I'm referring to the photographs showing claw marks, droppings, footprints and hairs you and your friends found in a remote region in the southeastern part of Java. The size of the footprints and the droppings in particular strongly suggest they were not left by a leopard.
Biologists think the Javan tiger was exterminated in the late seventies or early eighties of the last century, but it's possible some individuals survived the unslaught. The question is if a survivor would use sound to discourage humans from entering his territory.
In my opinion, it's very unlikely. There are different reasons. One is tigers have excellent senses. They can hear a human coming from a long way and are able to slip away unnoticed if they want to. In regions where they're hunted, chances to see or hear a tiger are even slimmer. Two is tigers are apex predators. They are very aware of all other animals living in it's territory. Wild tigers know humans pose a very real threat in most regions. Would an animal that knows aggression can result in repercussions consider intimidation as an option to defend it's territory? Based on what I read, I'd say it's unlikely. The Sobolonye tiger (referring to 'The Tiger' of John Vaillant) was quite the exception. The reason that tiger decided for action was the man it later killed had wounded and robbed him.
Tigers are elusive animals. Even experienced rangers and biologists in Russia only very seldom see or hear a tiger. Wild tigers, apart from those living in reserves where they're used to humans (referring to India in particular), don't want to be seen. Here's a few examples.
In central parts of China, as a result of a government program, tigers were exterminated in the fifties and sixties of the previous century. Those who know think about 4,000 wild tigers were poisoned or shot. In spite of that, reports about tigers kept coming in after the program was abandoned in the late sixties. A Chinese biologist with quite a reputation visited the region twice. I posted about his findings in the tiger extinction thread. Although he found strong evidence of big cats living in that region in 2011, he never heard or saw a tiger.
Another example. I saw a video posted in the days I was a member of the former AVA forum. In order to find out a bit more about the territoriality of tigers in a remote region in southeast Asia, a reporter and a cameraman asked local villagers to build a strong wooden cage at the edge of the jungle. Just before dusk, they entered the cage. The tiger came when the moon was gone. He jumped on top of the cage, tried to destroy it and threatened the reporter and the cameraman for many hours. Although he used sound, he never roared. Next morning, the two said they felt they had escaped death. In spite of the fact the tiger was right on top of them for hours, they didn't succeed to capture the tiger on camera. He was elusive, even when he was on top of the cage. In the video, you only see a ghost. He was there and then he wasn't.
I assume you remember the post in the tiger extinction thread about a captive male Amur tiger affected by an inflammation? The building in which he lived had a large hall, an operating room and a number of cages. The hall had about 20 visitors when the tiger started raging. When he became aggressive, fear struck. Nearly everyone left in a hurry. I know, as i was there.
As to the video you recently posted. I discussed it with a member of our forum and a few people who experienced dangerous situations (referring to professionals). The professionals told me the most common result of unseen and sudden danger is a panic. When fear strikes, it's everyone for himself. If a wild big cat roars to warn people in a forest, the result will be instant fear and a panic. People will run in every direction and do things you never expect them to do. The men in the video you posted, however, did not seem to be afraid when the tiger made himself known. There was no panic, but an orderly retreat and they kept talking when they left. Remarkable. And, to put it mildly, very uncommon.
The question, therefore, is if the sound of the tiger was dubbed in or not. A sound engineer no doubt would be able to get to a few conclusions.
This week, I'm out for a few days to visit friends. We'll continue the discussion next week.
One question to finish the post. The photographs you posted some years ago drew a crowd. Did you and your friends have an opportunity to return to the place where you found the droppings, foot prints and scratches? If not, are you planning a follow-up?
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) - TheHyenid76 - 03-23-2024
@peter @Ashutosh @Rage2277 @Pckts @Apex Titan @parvez @tigerluver @Roflcopters What do you all think about this?
Is the Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica extant? DNA analysis of a recent hair sample
Abstract
The Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica and the Bali tiger P. tigris balica were categorized as Extinct on the IUCN Red List in 2008 and 2013, respectively, leaving only the Sumatran subspecies P. tigris sumatrae extant in Indonesia. There have, however, been occasional, more recent reports of the Javan tiger but without conclusive evidence. Here, a potential observation in 2019 of a Javan tiger in a community plantation near the village of Cipendeuy in the forest of South Sukabumi, West Java, and a single hair found on a fence nearby, are assessed. The cytochrome b mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) gene sequence of the putative Javan tiger hair were compared with that of a Javan tiger specimen in Museum Zoologicum Bogoriense, collected in 1930; hair samples of several tiger subspecies and the Javan leopard Panthera pardus melas were used as controls. The results showed that the genetic distances (d) of the putative Javan tiger hair with the Sumatran, Bengal P. tigris tigris and Amur P. tigris altaica tigers and the Javan leopard are 0.074 ± SE 0.009, 0.071 ± SE 0.009, 0.072 ± SE 0.009 and 0.088 ± SE 0.010, respectively, whereas the genetic distance of the putative Javan tiger hair with the Javan tiger museum specimen is 0.040 ± SE 0.006. In addition, phylogenetic trees showed that the putative Javan tiger hair sample belongs to the same group as the museum specimen of the Javan tiger, but is differentiated from other tiger subspecies and the Javan leopard. Whether the Javan tiger still occurs in the wild needs to be confirmed with further genetic and field studies.
Is the Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica extant? DNA analysis of a recent hair sample
Image of a stuffed Javan tiger in Bogor Museum, Java, Indonesia. Source.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) - Apex Titan - 03-26-2024
(03-23-2024, 04:29 PM)TheHyenid76 Wrote: @peter @Ashutosh @Rage2277 @Pckts @Apex Titan @parvez @tigerluver @Roflcopters What do you all think about this?
Is the Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica extant? DNA analysis of a recent hair sample
Abstract
The Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica and the Bali tiger P. tigris balica were categorized as Extinct on the IUCN Red List in 2008 and 2013, respectively, leaving only the Sumatran subspecies P. tigris sumatrae extant in Indonesia. There have, however, been occasional, more recent reports of the Javan tiger but without conclusive evidence. Here, a potential observation in 2019 of a Javan tiger in a community plantation near the village of Cipendeuy in the forest of South Sukabumi, West Java, and a single hair found on a fence nearby, are assessed. The cytochrome b mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) gene sequence of the putative Javan tiger hair were compared with that of a Javan tiger specimen in Museum Zoologicum Bogoriense, collected in 1930; hair samples of several tiger subspecies and the Javan leopard Panthera pardus melas were used as controls. The results showed that the genetic distances (d) of the putative Javan tiger hair with the Sumatran, Bengal P. tigris tigris and Amur P. tigris altaica tigers and the Javan leopard are 0.074 ± SE 0.009, 0.071 ± SE 0.009, 0.072 ± SE 0.009 and 0.088 ± SE 0.010, respectively, whereas the genetic distance of the putative Javan tiger hair with the Javan tiger museum specimen is 0.040 ± SE 0.006. In addition, phylogenetic trees showed that the putative Javan tiger hair sample belongs to the same group as the museum specimen of the Javan tiger, but is differentiated from other tiger subspecies and the Javan leopard. Whether the Javan tiger still occurs in the wild needs to be confirmed with further genetic and field studies.
Is the Javan tiger Panthera tigris sondaica extant? DNA analysis of a recent hair sample
Image of a stuffed Javan tiger in Bogor Museum, Java, Indonesia. Source.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Nice info.
Based on everything I've read, heard and seen, I think Javan tigers still exist. There are countless reliable modern day reports from Indonesian locals and villagers who've seen tiger footprints and actually sighted or encountered a Javan tiger in the forest.
You should watch the documentary called: 'Extinct or Alive?' featuring wildlife biologist Forrest Galante. He goes to Java in search of the Javan tiger and to try confirm it's existence. He learns that there are tons of reports of people seeing Javan tigers to this day.
At night time, they capture drone footage of a huge, cat-like animal, much bigger than a leopard, and much bigger than themselves, gracefully walking through the forest like a big cat. Which is most likely a Javan tiger based on its huge size and gait. What else could it be, if not a tiger?
The problem is (as biologist Forrest Galante mentions) that there's been no proper scientific studies or survey's conducted looking for Javan tigers. The scientists and biologists are slacking in that department. He also discovers that the Java island has a vast amount of wildlife and wilderness to easily support a tiger population.
All in all, I personally think Javan tigers still exist.