(10-19-2020, 12:28 PM)TheSmok Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 11:17 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, Machli was a tigress, so quite a lot smaller than male lions. So while Machli killed a crocodile estimated to be 12 ft, 14 ft means only half a meter more, while male lion is roughly 1,5-2 times bigger than a tigress. So I really don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that a lion kills a crocodile around 4 meters long.

A 14-foot crocodile is on average 2 times heavier than a 12-foot crocodile and about 1/3 heavier than a 13 foot one. I would not be so skeptical if Bumi lions were adult males, but they are young ones, hardly so much larger than the adult tigress.

(10-19-2020, 11:17 AM)Shadow Wrote: And what comes to it, from where this started now, I find it interesting, that with time I had to change my opinion. I thought a long time, that crocodiles simply dominate lions, but with time I have changed my mind. Big cats seem to be able to handle crocodiles surprisingly well, when they need to. I have found far more cases of lions killing crocodiles than vice versa. Overall when looking at big cats and crocodiles, known incidents leading to death of one, seem to be usually such, that crocodile is killed.

Perhaps you are currently underestimating the number of cases where crocodiles killing big cats.

Mark Ross, an experienced safari guide, knows two cases when crocodile stalked and killed a male lion. In both cases, there was not much struggle:

Quote:Hunting Anything and everything is on a crocodile's menu. I know of two cases in which a crocodile stalked and successfully killed a male lion. And in both cases it wasn't much of a fight once the crocodile got the lion into the water.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=E01QAAAAYAAJ&q=Hunting+Anything+and+everything+is+on+a+crocodile

This is his website: https://markrosssafaris.com/

A well-known case describing a male lion killed by a crocodile:

Quote:Mid 2007, one of the Roller Coaster males was killed by a Crocodile. Since then, his brother has maintained dominance over the Styx pride and is believed to be the Sire of their current cubs. There have been a number of reports of the Styx lionesses seen mating with males from the Mapogo Coalition but the old Roller Coaster male is usually in attendance with the Styx pride and accepts the cubs as his. So don’t tell him they might not all be his.

http://blog.wildearth.tv/2009_06_01_archive.html 

Another one:

Quote:Apparently, two weeks ago the Mapogo Males were drinking from the Sand river in Londolozi Game Reserve when a crocodile attacked and killed one of them at the waters edge it would be the second male lion killed by a crocodile on the Sabi Sands in the past few months as one of the Rollercoaster males (Mala Mala name, they are the Shaws Males on Londolozi) was also killed by a crocodile recently.

http://blog.wildearth.tv/2007/10/story-behind-mapogo-males.html

Cott (1961) also mentions cases of crocodiles preying on lions:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.ru/books?id=0rCRBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Cott+1961+crocodile+lion&source=bl&ots=iunbEba9NE&sig=mG8Sba-ZjeKFiwxQvvawBI2k6n4&hl=ru&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Cott%201961%20crocodile%20lion&f=false

Similar data from a book published earlier than paper by Cott (1961):

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https://books.google.ru/books?redir_esc=y&hl=ru&id=zkJBAAAAYAAJ&dq=Crocodile+drown+lion&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=drown+lion

Rangers sighting reported in an African Wild Life magazine in 1964:

Quote:CROCODILE GRABS LION.
Two Bantu Rangers on patrol saw four lions drinking in the Olifants River. On seeing them the lions immediately sprang up and the only lioness in the pride charged towards the Rangers. At that moment a large crocodile grabbed one of the young lions by the hind leg and dragged him into the water

https://books.google.ru/books?id=gIgoAQAAMAAJ&q=crocodile+grabbed+one+of+the+young+lions+by+the+hind+leg+and+dragged+him+into+the+water.+As+the&dq=crocodile+grabbed+one+of+the+young+lions+by+the+hind+leg+and+dragged+him+into+the+water.+As+the&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXsM3U0ajpAhXCwMQBHfqMDLUQ6AEIKDAA

Recent observation of mugger crocodiles predation on a young male Asiatic lion and on a leopard from CSG journal:

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.iucncsg.org/365_docs/attachments/protarea/08a8e661546c8d5aac6951ea5a421f9e.pdf

Recent photographs of a crocodile feeding on a lion. The original source states that in the first photo, the lion is still alive ("images taken in Kruger at the low level bridge on the H1-2. The first is a huge Croc in a tussle with a full grow Lion and a Barbel getting caught up in the battle"):

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6225755751?red_tag=2885105181
Video with a crocodile feeding on a lion: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2171977466381428

It is not known if this lioness was killed by a crocodile, but the same can be said for dead crocodiles photographed next to lions:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:The Castleton pride, broken and fragmented, recently suffered the loss of four pride members. We topped the LTA dam wall to find a strange whitish object floating in the water. Only when we saw the teeth could we make out what it was… a lioness! Suddenly she disappeared under the water, only to rise again in the jaws of an enormous crocodile as it thrashed her from side to side! Whether she had been taken by the croc, or died on land and was pulled into the water by the large reptile was uncertain. Momentarily a hippopotamus arrived at the carcass, perhaps out of curiosity, and the crocodile moved on. In the shade of a nearby tree her sub-adult youngster sat and watched, emaciated and on the brink of death. It was painful to see her and after that we never saw the youngster again.We found a young male, also badly emaciated, lying next to a waterhole. My heart went out to him as I heard the not too distant bellows of a large (over 200) herd of buffalo. Instead of running away he hid in the grass and waited for them… perhaps his hunger had crazed him and he thought he might somehow snatch a calf from the herd. Perhaps he somehow knew his time had come. As the herd walked past him, one of the bulls spotted him, and gave a call I had never heard before. It was low, menacing, frightening. It was the call to attack.

https://www.facebook.com/Mapogo.Lions/photos/p.1848022048832601/1848022048832601/?type=1&opaqueCursor=AboZCx6gPGC6VDfshR5qp_xR0DC6Dw1txihVU6mSjLsuAjsmGbVhEACEiraGPbY4_0qGWydr6cAiaOC0pEU3xY9e5aKkSDOb9EGLclJU0F5ph0ic23fB67XDUL0WS_viRbasvj1nXMPY3ALY4Cop-8GdFBlVWP72cNeEtAm4DhAJC3DHurKDW84UhUSouKJ3eNrOhewCUOCNNcnkD6w787IFDFn0vt2SSW2sKjnMi4iMXi5LShG-1Vyci8JpOql1xr7bHMirhJLeqw17_0wVqtTU8YqHrpjT4iLJdbpuQpZR3kLNeMsnnwDizqWdIwU8WL1myfS8g6sghS2Cdq9sMfMjgY-drr0YErQssKRCCJGN_Rm_cdPziPQOMS1GTUteV-jvy8frx9gTT8Lm9KXRBjtXSjFPEZZRuRuqqlEkC1pPWnS_-lnkrB72NSZiDFMofEg&theater

Crocodile with dead lioness:

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Asiatic lioness, probably killed by mugger(s):

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https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Lioness-killed-by-crocodile/articleshow/7802167.cms

Photo with a crocodile holding in its jaws what looks like a small lioness:

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are no specific observations, but this article, published in the journal LIFE on Dec 9, 1966, states that lions are a frequent prey of crocodiles in Okavango swamps:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.ru/books?id=BlMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=crocodile+steal+lion+prey&source=bl&ots=ebMZ5lq1aP&sig=D8KelVko0NMiO0N4XP0bcjoCVK4&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixhPTi3Z_ZAhUHCywKHThuDykQ6AEwFXoFCKMBEAE#v=onepage&q=Crocodile%20&f=false
This makes sense, since in the swamps of the Okavango Delta, lions can live in almost the same conditions as the tigers in the Sundarbans.

An unusual case described in an old book "The Baganda: An Account of Their Native Customs and Beliefs":

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https://books.google.ru/books?id=Eu-wAAAAIAAJ&q=Crocodile+drown+lion&dq=Crocodile+drown+lion&hl=ru&sa=X&redir_esc=y

Old observation published in The Southeast Missourian, nov 23, 1936:

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https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19361123&id=O1cgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=09IEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6884,5192533&hl=ru

This observation, published in The Age on Sep 18, 1897, is unusual in that it describes how a crocodile caught a lion on land. Moreover, in a fairly realistic context:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=18970918&id=4dphAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UpEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2105,1018558&hl=ru

A recent observation of a lioness falling in the water and being taken by a crocodile:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:These pictures were taken on game drive (at a distance), and are not for the sensitive.  Mostly what we see is beautiful and or exciting; but there's no avoiding the reality of nature, it is honest and often brutal.  One animal's mistake, is another's desperately needed meal.  On this occasion, a lioness left her four cubs behind and put aside her feline dislike of water to cross the weir near Lower Sabi in the Kruger Park.  On her return, she broke into a run and missed her footing, getting swept into the Sabi River, and the waiting jaws of a crocodile.  We believe that the cubs are now being reared by another female from the pride.  Thank you very much to Joey Vermeulen for the pics.

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.facebook.com/RhinoPost/posts/1020734007955400

Account by Robert E. Coleman published in book "Conflicts in Nature" how a 1200 pound crocodile killed a male lion:
https://books.google.ru/books?id=L8l1uThXdSoC&q
Account from the book "Among animals of Africa", 1970:

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12 ft Nile crocodile killed an adult male lion, from the book "Animals in Their Places: Tales from the Natural World", 1987:

Quote:The year before a large and aggressive male had ruled the pride, but he had fallen ill with a parasite infestation and the sicker he had gotten the less alert he had become. One evening, just at dusk, he had been down on the sand flats lapping water from one of the streams that marked the course of the parent river. He had died an unlikely death, held underwater in the jaws of a twelve-foot Nile crocodile.

https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=lNkLAAAAIAAJ&dq=He+had+died+an+unlikely+death%2C+held+underwater+in+the+jaws+of+a+twelve-+foot+Nile+crocodile&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Nile+crocodile

Locals report that crocodiles kill lions. Anecdotal report from "Drum: A Magazine of Africa for Africa. African Drum Publications", 1996:

Quote:..."What do Nile crocodiles eat?" I asked. "Nile crocodiles prey mainly on wildebeest, gazelles, buffalo, wild dogs and lions that come to the water to drink...

https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=TU4nAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Nile+crocodiles+prey+mainly+on+wildebeest%2C+gazelles%2C+buffalo%2C+wild+dogs+and+lions

David Paynter and Wilf Nussey in book "Kruger: portrait of a national park" (1986) mention that Nile crocodiles kill fully grown male lions:

Quote:A crocodile dragging an antelope into the water may be a grim sight but the crocodile is fulfilling a purely natural need - to ... Crocodiles have been seen dragging full-grown buffalo bulls and even male lions to a watery death - not surprising...

https://books.google.ru/books?id=w8cPAQAAIAAJ&q=crocodile+killed+male+lion&dq=crocodile+killed+male+lion&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBWoVChMIiIisy5WfxwIVJZNyCh1RXAVp

An unusual account, described in book "Animal facts and feats" by Gerald L. Wood:

*This image is copyright of its original author

...their balance lost, fell into the river, which seemed suddenly to become alive with great jaws.
https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=HF4OAQAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=their+balance+lost%2C+fell+into+the+river%2C+which+seemed+suddenly+to+become+alive+with+great+jaws
Another mention of this observation:

Quote:There's a well-authenticated story of a crocodile which knocked three drinking lions into a river with one sweep of its tail-and the rest of the crocs made short work of them!

https://books.google.ru/books?id=HJE_AAAAYAAJ&q=there%27s+a+well-authenticated+story+of+a+crocodile+which+knocked+three+drinking&dq=there%27s+a+well-authenticated+story+of+a+crocodile+which+knocked+three+drinking&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIxLbKgIX0yAIVARByCh0KYABq

Guggisberg in his book "Crocodiles: Their Natural History, Folklore and Conservation" also describes the discovery of lion's claws in the stomach of a crocodile. Some additional photos have been posted in this thread by other users.

So I would not say that crocodiles rarely kill lions, there are also many old accounts of crocodiles killing tigers. Perhaps in the past, when there were more lions and tigers, this happened more often than now, as many old accounts show. Nowadays, there are many cases of crocodile predation on leopards, which are the most common and numerous big cats.

"December 3, 2016. Road above Borupanwila in Wilpattu. After lunch our safari driver Ajith told us to go for a walk without resting so we started our journey in the jeep. Ajith said that there was a tiger parked on the road above Borupanwila but we could not see anything. At the same time, the tiger ran across the road and jumped to the other side unimaginably fast‍. Disappointed, we put our cameras on the seats and stared at the empty road. At the same time, the tiger was dragged by the neck of a huge crocodile and came running across the road again."

*This image is copyright of its original author

link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Wild.Wilpatthu/permalink/2429979577104089

(02-13-2021, 10:45 AM)Styx38 Wrote: Leopard with Crocodile kill.

"December 3, 2016. Road above Borupanwila in Wilpattu. After lunch our safari driver Ajith told us to go for a walk without resting so we started our journey in the jeep. Ajith said that there was a tiger parked on the road above Borupanwila but we could not see anything. At the same time, the tiger ran across the road and jumped to the other side unimaginably fast‍. Disappointed, we put our cameras on the seats and stared at the empty road. At the same time, the tiger was dragged by the neck of a huge crocodile and came running across the road again."

*This image is copyright of its original author

link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Wild.Wilpatthu/permalink/2429979577104089

(02-17-2021, 12:27 AM)Balam Wrote:

(02-13-2021, 10:45 AM)Styx38 Wrote: Leopard with Crocodile kill.

"December 3, 2016. Road above Borupanwila in Wilpattu. After lunch our safari driver Ajith told us to go for a walk without resting so we started our journey in the jeep. Ajith said that there was a tiger parked on the road above Borupanwila but we could not see anything. At the same time, the tiger ran across the road and jumped to the other side unimaginably fast‍. Disappointed, we put our cameras on the seats and stared at the empty road. At the same time, the tiger was dragged by the neck of a huge crocodile and came running across the road again."

*This image is copyright of its original author

link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Wild.Wilpatthu/permalink/2429979577104089

This was not a kill, it was posted originally here and according to OP the encounter lasted 1.5 hours, in which the crocodile ended up prevailing:

*This image is copyright of its original author

(02-17-2021, 02:05 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(02-17-2021, 12:27 AM)Balam Wrote:

(02-13-2021, 10:45 AM)Styx38 Wrote: Leopard with Crocodile kill.

"December 3, 2016. Road above Borupanwila in Wilpattu. After lunch our safari driver Ajith told us to go for a walk without resting so we started our journey in the jeep. Ajith said that there was a tiger parked on the road above Borupanwila but we could not see anything. At the same time, the tiger ran across the road and jumped to the other side unimaginably fast‍. Disappointed, we put our cameras on the seats and stared at the empty road. At the same time, the tiger was dragged by the neck of a huge crocodile and came running across the road again."

*This image is copyright of its original author

link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Wild.Wilpatthu/permalink/2429979577104089

This was not a kill, it was posted originally here and according to OP the encounter lasted 1.5 hours, in which the crocodile ended up prevailing:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The only mention of the Crocodile escaping was from that Chinese Forum.

When I saw the facebook posts for the actual Sri Lankan poster, I did not find any mention of the Crocodile escaping.

They were amazed at a unique photo of a Leopard catching a Crocodile, and the main poster was whining that he did not send it to Nat Geo due to thinking it was an amateur photo.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:The only mention of the Crocodile escaping was from that Chinese Forum.

Quote:When I saw the facebook posts for the actual Sri Lankan poster, I did not find any mention of the Crocodile escaping.

Quote:They were amazed at a unique photo of a Leopard catching a Crocodile, and the main poster was whining that he did not send it to Nat Geo due to thinking it was an amateur photo.

Quote:The "Chinese site" had a post on the interaction dating back to 2017, the Facebook post was made in 2020, in the 2017 post the name of the guide is mentioned and later corroborated by the Facebook post, so it wasn't any random post, not to mention that in the 2017 post the picture included is that of the actual camera showing the shot in it.

Quote:And in the Facebook post there is no mention of the leopard killing the crocodile either:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The translation is rough, but it could be applied that the crocodile returned to the scene later on, no mention of successful predation or kill is specified here. What is specified is that they could not focus clearly on the scene, so any derived conclusion of the leopard killing the crocodile would be false.

Quote:The Facebook post is basically an account back from 3 December 2016 hence the uploader shared the date. It's also worth mentioning that the Chinese post appears to be from a random poster whereas the Facebook one is from a person who witnessed this encounter.

Quote:The translation says nothing about the crocodile returning afterwards unless you believe they sat there for 1,5 hours on an empty road?

Quote:You have the right to believe it still managed to escape after 1,5 hours but based on the account and two photos (notice the two photos are not the same), chances are the crocodile didn't survive. 

Quote:The fact that the leopard didn't even subdue it but rather grabbed it tells me the crocodile got overpowered immediately. I also don't think either the leopard or crocodile can fight each other for 1,5 hours nor do I believe they stayed this long on the scene.

Quote:The Facebook post was made in the year 2020, the account took place in 2016, closer to the date of 2017 which was shared on the Chinese forum, which was not by a random commenter since the name of the guide was, once again, mentioned in that post too, alluding that the photographer had likely made the post there first before sharing on Facebook.

Quote:The translation states with clarity that the crocodile returned later on, since safaris can last hours it is not unlikely that they waited for a long time in the area to see if they could continue witnessing the event. Since the initial post from 2017 mentions that timeframe, whereas nowhere is it mentioned that the crocodile was killed, we have more reasons to believe that was the case.

Quote:You have no evidence to suggest that the large crocodile was "quickly" overpowered, that is a wild guess coming from a biased perspective.

Quote:The crocodile was clearly in a disadvantageous position from the beginning, it was inland which allowed the leopard to get a hold of it from the back as that was the easiest point to try to kill the crocodile.

Quote:The crocodile is clearly fighting back throughout the whole process, which ended up in it coming victorious in the end.

Quote:Seeing as though the crocodile was considerably larger than the sizes leopards tackle, it is unlikely that it had any major injuries in the end, baring dehydration and stress caused by the area it was in. Rather than a fight this was more a failed hunting attempt on a crocodilian that was outside the range for the leopard to kill.

Quote:And how do you know for sure the post wasn't just copy paste? Once again we have a poster on a Chinese forum and on the other hand we have a native witness who kindly shared a photo of his experience back in 2016.

Quote:The crocodile did not return... You're basing this off the translation button you used on Facebook. Here's the translation once again:

Quote:It appeared to be overpowered based on the account with the right translation in combination with the photographs. This has nothing to do with bias. The account and photos clearly state the leopard rushed out of nowhere across the road and returned with a crocodile hanging in its jaws. I don't know about you, but that tells me it overpowered the crocodile. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to drag it back from where it came, it would've been struggling at the place they engaged.

Quote:This is pretty ignorant to be honest. I have no evidence to suggest it managed to overpower the crocodile based on the account and photos but you can somehow conclude it was in an disadvantageous position? So you're 100% there are no ponds, lakes, rivers etc present nearby? That this was a mugger crocodile that got lost? No you cannot.

Quote:It's not fighting back because it can't do anything at this point. At best it's struggling but so does every animal when it's being predated on. You're looking at a crocodile that's being killed by a leopard via suffocation, at least that's what it looks like.

Quote:Leopards have attacked/killed crocodiles of similar size before. I can post evidence if you desire.

It's once again ignorant of you to think that it won't have any major injuries since you don't even know if it survived in the first place. The leopard is holding the crocodile in its jaws for Christ sake, the odds are in favour of the leopard this time wether you like it or not. But then again you believe that leopards can only kill crocodiles that are either dehydrated or young ones for whatever reason.