There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
tiger and bear tale

Asia/Pacific Region parvez Offline
Regular Member
***
#16

(12-27-2016, 07:54 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Grizzlies and polar bears do indeed carry more fat than the other bear species; this is true. However, that extra muscle - the shoulder hump - is very real. As for tigers and bears, the tiger most aggressive towards bears is the Amur tiger. He hunts both grizzlies and Asiatic black bears. You will read from many sources that tigers hunt and kill more brown bears than black bears, but DNA testing of tiger-dung proves them wrong. This was an assumption due to the black bear's tree-climbing ability. 
Also note; having predators does not cause great physical strength. That mostly comes from food-finding methods and in male-to-male competition for mating rights.

I agreed on this a few days back. Having predators does not give great physical strength. But anyhow regarding amur tigers, that is interesting study. Black bears make most of the diet of amur tigers than brown bears. Tfs.
2 users Like parvez's post
Reply

United States Polar Offline
Student at Virginia Tech
*****
Moderators
#17

No, I am comparing human vs chimpanzee aggression to prove that a human's aggressiveness won't make it pound-for-pound stronger than a calm chimpanzee. 

Same with the bears. You assumed that sloth bears were pound-for-pound stronger than brown bears due to "fighting nature" (which other bears have) and their increased aggression, which isn't true.
"Polar bears are the world's largest extant mammalian predator. Despite their size, they are capable of feats none can compare to, including but not limited to: dragging a three-ton walrus with only its jaws."

- Polar, January 2017
2 users Like Polar's post
Reply

India sanjay Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
*****
#18
( This post was last modified: 03-20-2017, 09:19 PM by sanjay )

First, I don't know where to post this awesome video.
This is latest sensational video of a male tiger fighting with male Sloth Bear in night. Both fight very well and sloth bear gives a good fight but tiger stood its ground.
I must say that this is very very rare video and we must enjoy it.





Please share this thread to your friends :)
"There is pleasure in the pathless woods, there is rapture in the lonely shore, there is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar; I love not Man the less, but Nature more" --Lord Byron
10 users Like sanjay's post
Reply

United States Haymaker Offline
Banned
#19
( This post was last modified: 03-20-2017, 09:46 PM by Haymaker )

(03-20-2017, 09:15 PM)sanjay Wrote: First, I don't know where to post this awesome video.
This is latest sensational video of a male tiger fighting with male Sloth Bear in night. Both fight very well and sloth bear gives a good fight but tiger stood its ground.
I must say that this is very very rare video and we must enjoy it.





Please share this thread to your friends :)



That's a great video, you can see the speed at which the tiger strikes.  That certainly helped it in fending off the bear, as the bear came forward the tiger looked like it was going to rear up, but the bear came charging in lower, then the tiger sort of struck the sides of the bears head and gripped also.  It seems like the tiger submitted by lowering itself, but then the bear walked away later in the other direction, before it made a few displays of aggression.  If you look closely after the bear backed the tiger up, it makes that later display of aggression in the spot light of the car, when it does that, watch the tiger, the tiger drops down into submission.

After the bear leaves the tiger gets up and walks across the road.  These bears really aren't that big, so honestly the tiger should fair well, because both seem to be similar size.  But either way, awesome rare video, great find!!
2 users Like Haymaker's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
#20
( This post was last modified: 03-20-2017, 09:46 PM by Pckts )

Took place on the road to moharli, tadoba
Nice find
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
3 users Like Pckts's post
Reply

United States Haymaker Offline
Banned
#21

(12-27-2016, 07:53 PM)Polar Wrote:
(12-27-2016, 06:54 PM)parvez Wrote: Due to the presence of tigers and even leopards sometimes, bears in indian subcontinent (sloth bear and asiatic black bear) are known to be extra aggressive than other species of bears. They are known to be vicious fighters. So, i assumed one of them should be strongest pound for pound. But I am really not sure. If you have any studies regarding which bear is the strongest pound for pound i would be glad to read it. You may be right no one knows the truth until studies are published. But i agree grizzly bear has massive shoulder hump. But it should also be remembered that they have thick hairy fur covering all over the body. Also, they have around several inches thick fat layer all over the body. So, the hump is not as impressive as it appears to be. Not trying to make this a versus debate, but check out these massive specimens, i find these tigers to be having the biggest shoulder humps in all carnivorous or  omnivorous world with some exceptions of grizzlies almost touching the level. Perhaps you can state your opinion if you agree or not,

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Impressive shoulder hump on grizzlies,

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Tigers (and big cats in general) have shoulder blades with little to no muscle in between them, just like in the pictures you posted. Even larger tigers still have this same feature.

Smaller brown bears have similar shoulder hump muscle feature as larger brown bears, just like in the pictures you posted. You sort of proved yourself wrong.

Sometimes, the fur may make the grizzly's shoulder hump appear larger than it is, but point is the shoulder hump is a natural, morphological feature of bears in general. Trust me on this, I felt a mound of shoulder muscle on polar bears (although not as big as brown bears) too in my 2014 PBI trip.

Also, an aggressive bear isn't stronger than an already strong bear. A mad human isn't pound-for-pound stronger than a calmer chimpanzee.





There was this guy on youtube from Russia who was a bear fan, he was posting all kind of accounts, of bear and tiger fights, it seems from what is out there, the bear is superior to the tiger in a fight, including small bears like sloth bears.  Now I would not ordinarily expect that, because I'd back a same size tiger vs a same size bear, but from what I saw in the accounts, the bears are tougher, and they fight stronger, even small bears.
2 users Like Haymaker's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#22

Nice find Sanjay. Remember that the tiger is the predator; the aggressor. The sloth bear stood his ground in defense. It seems odd to me the sloth bear's habit of facing his enemies rather than scurry up a tree like a black bear. They are capable of doing so. I understand it with a grizzly because they are simply not good climbers. Those little guys can be brave in the face of danger.
 ~ ~ Grizzly - Ursus arctos - Brown Bear ~ ~         
3 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

United States Haymaker Offline
Banned
#23

(03-20-2017, 11:56 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Nice find Sanjay. Remember that the tiger is the predator; the aggressor. The sloth bear stood his ground in defense. It seems odd to me the sloth bear's habit of facing his enemies rather than scurry up a tree like a black bear. They are capable of doing so. I understand it with a grizzly because they are simply not good climbers. Those little guys can be brave in the face of danger.


Brother there is some legit accounts of sloth bears and tigers, and all sorts of bears, it seems from what I saw, that the bear comes into the fight with its head down, so its throat is protected.  So you see that as the bear charges the tiger, its head is down, the tiger ends up clawing the top part of the neck and head, this is a winning strategy for the bear and accounts show it works, eventually the tiger will become worn down not able to get to the throat and bear will over power it.  This is true even for blackbears as well, all sorts of bears.  Bears by nature seem to be the tougher, but again a larger tiger is hard to bet against, because there is just a lot of speed and power there.
3 users Like Haymaker's post
Reply

Asia/Pacific Region parvez Offline
Regular Member
***
#24
( This post was last modified: 03-21-2017, 02:37 PM by parvez )

Both tigers and bears seem to have thumping paw swipes due to same reason. Even pound for pound they seem to be almost equally stronger due to same reason. That is why the fight was closer. The sloth bear being nasty fighter has proved himself here. The tiger will avoid unnecessary confrontation with bear as far as possible. But here the tiger seems to be dazzled by nastiness of sloth bear. That may be the reason it stopped attacking the bear. Also the bear was smart enough to avoid tigers bite to neck. Altogether it was awesome fight. Tfs Sanjay.
Edit: The tiger is almost same size as bear so it must be sub adult. He was tired easily that indicates low stamina of Bengal tigers while fighting.
2 users Like parvez's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#25

I didn't see a tired tiger. I saw a very cautious tiger. With the sloth bear facing him, those long, sharp claws, used for tearing into ant-mounds with, are difficult to get past without injury. The tiger has a size advantage, much longer and probably a little heavier. He ( the tiger ) appears to be nearly grown, but yes, young and inexperienced. 
A lion or tiger can last longer in a fight than some believe. Very likely, perhaps, at some point off-camera, the tiger found his ( or her ) chance to ambush the bear. We will never know for sure.
 ~ ~ Grizzly - Ursus arctos - Brown Bear ~ ~         
4 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#26

Haymaker; all that you say is true, but it's all in self-defence. No sloth bear walks around in the woods looking for a tiger to pick a fight with. The tiger is the hunter; the aggressor. but once chosen, the sloth bear ( sometimes ) goes in full-throttle against the big cat. I believe its more like a "wolverine-bluff" than pushing for a fight to the death. I have yet to find even a single account of a sloth bear ever killing a tiger, although he can deliver some nasty wounds. But the other way around - yes.
 ~ ~ Grizzly - Ursus arctos - Brown Bear ~ ~         
3 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

Netherlands peter Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
Moderators
#27
( This post was last modified: 03-21-2017, 11:21 PM by peter )

(03-20-2017, 09:43 PM)Haymaker Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 09:15 PM)sanjay Wrote: First, I don't know where to post this awesome video.
This is latest sensational video of a male tiger fighting with male Sloth Bear in night. Both fight very well and sloth bear gives a good fight but tiger stood its ground.
I must say that this is very very rare video and we must enjoy it.





Please share this thread to your friends :)



That's a great video, you can see the speed at which the tiger strikes.  That certainly helped it in fending off the bear, as the bear came forward the tiger looked like it was going to rear up, but the bear came charging in lower, then the tiger sort of struck the sides of the bears head and gripped also.  It seems like the tiger submitted by lowering itself, but then the bear walked away later in the other direction, before it made a few displays of aggression.  If you look closely after the bear backed the tiger up, it makes that later display of aggression in the spot light of the car, when it does that, watch the tiger, the tiger drops down into submission.

After the bear leaves the tiger gets up and walks across the road.  These bears really aren't that big, so honestly the tiger should fair well, because both seem to be similar size.  But either way, awesome rare video, great find!!

HAYMAKER

For someone claiming to know a bit about the noble art of self defence, the interpretation you offered is, ehhh, quite peculiar. If we add the crap posts on 900-pound wild lions and all the rest you picked up in the books written by a man who developed a serious dislike for stripes over time, I can only get to an agenda. We don't like agendas over here. You was told in a pm, you got another warning after a crap post and when that had no effect a one week holiday was the result.  

We met before. It resulted in a ban. I don't mind you giving it another try but it seems you, obsessionwise, didn't learn one thing. My advice is to quit crapping around and start contributing good information. 

And quit the phony questions as well. You want to know about size? Read the extinction and modern weights threads. You want to know about tigers and bears in the Russian far East? Read the extinction thread.

If you continue you way you did, I would start thinking about buying a 900-pound pet lion to keep you company in the near future. One with no mane, so you can get an idea about the muscle department on top of the shoulders.

VIDEO

As to the video. It starts with a sloth bear crossing the road from left to right for a demonstration and it ends with a tiger crossing the road from right to left and no bear to demonstrate. Meaning Baloo didn't have a good day at the office.

Was the exchange a result of predation gone wrong? I didn't see any predation. A tiger doing predation isn't going for a confrontation. A tiger interested in predation will try to get in at an angle and move for a position enabling him to finish the opponent as quickly as possible. He would also show aggression. He most definitely will not allow the intended victim to do a few statements. 

Was it a fight then? In order to get to an opinion, one should have watched a few fights in which tigers were involved. I saw a few and heard a lot more from people who saw much more than all of us combined. A tiger involved in a real fight roars and gives it everything he has. So much so, that it results in a lot of breaks. It's something that can continue for a very long time. Those who witness a real fight very often move out a quick as possible, bars or no bars. I know, because I saw it more than once. The reason? Fear. 

But the bear committed himself, no? No, he didn't. The bear responded in the way every bear would do when suddenly confronted in that he tried to bluff his way out of trouble. This is not something that adult males only do. It's engrained in every bear, young or old, male or female. They stand on their hind legs and attack their opponent with everything they have. Does it work? Most certainly. That's why all of them do it. Same for captive bears.

Tigers, on the other hand, only fight animals they dislike. It would take quite a dislike to go for an all-out. Few tigers will accept a challenge of a bear for no reason at all and bears knows. A bear suddenly confronted by a tiger usually bluffs his way out. But a demonstration is different from a fight. An average male Indian tiger is larger and heavier than an average male sloth bear. Not saying it would be a very one-sided affair, but I've yet to read a report about an adult tiger killed by a sloth bear.   

Although the strategy works for bears most of the time, it has disadvantages. The bear in the video nearly paid when he overplayed his hand. If the tiger would have been committed, it could have ended right at the start of the video. My guess is the bear knew the tiger wasn't committed. A bear of similar size confronted by a smaller tigress with cubs would have thought twice.  

So what was going on then? I don't know, but it seemed like the bear was harrassed. He tried to find a way out and secure a safe retreat. The tiger, as can be seen, avoided direct contact, but not quite in that he didn't intend to pull out of it. Every time the bear came for him, he retreated a bit and laid down. Tigers involved in a confrontation that didn't yet result in a fight often wait for their opponent to make a move. Same with man-eaters and tigers cornered by humans with dogs: they often wait for the other to make a move. It's a game of nerves.

After every demonstration, the tiger moved forward. The distance between both animals never exceeded 30 feet or so. The tiger kept the pressure up, that is. In the end, the bear moved out and that was the end of it. Could have been a conflict about space. Tigers often 'probe' opponents or 'guide' them out of their territory. 

I don't think tigers see sloth bears as competitors, but it's well-known that they do not get along with them. And the other way round. They could be competitors in the dominance department. When things are unclear in this respect, a confrontation can be the result. Some of these can develop into a fight. Billy Arjan Singh heard an angry tigress roar during a lengthy fight one evening. He found the bear next morning. Some male tigers can develop a taste for bears, but incidents of this kind are few and far between in India.

We need a bit more on both animals in order to be able to understand why the confrontation filmed happened. 

What we don't need is preferenced posters with bulky agendas going for misinformation right away. This is a forum. Not some bloody You Tube channel.
9 users Like peter's post
Reply

United States Ba Ba Lou Offline
Banned
#28

Male bengal tiger vs. male sloth bear fight, more like a brief skirmish than a real fight,  both tiger and bear look to be about the same size, indicating the tiger was probably a sub-adult. L
Late in the video the bear was no where to be seen, a win for the tiger.





Second video, tiger DID NOT attack elephant, tiger roared and charged elephant, than retreated, than roared and charged elephant again, and retreated again, elephant finally walked away
Reply

United States Haymaker Offline
Banned
#29

(03-21-2017, 11:16 PM)peter Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 09:43 PM)Haymaker Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 09:15 PM)sanjay Wrote: First, I don't know where to post this awesome video.
This is latest sensational video of a male tiger fighting with male Sloth Bear in night. Both fight very well and sloth bear gives a good fight but tiger stood its ground.
I must say that this is very very rare video and we must enjoy it.





Please share this thread to your friends :)



That's a great video, you can see the speed at which the tiger strikes.  That certainly helped it in fending off the bear, as the bear came forward the tiger looked like it was going to rear up, but the bear came charging in lower, then the tiger sort of struck the sides of the bears head and gripped also.  It seems like the tiger submitted by lowering itself, but then the bear walked away later in the other direction, before it made a few displays of aggression.  If you look closely after the bear backed the tiger up, it makes that later display of aggression in the spot light of the car, when it does that, watch the tiger, the tiger drops down into submission.

After the bear leaves the tiger gets up and walks across the road.  These bears really aren't that big, so honestly the tiger should fair well, because both seem to be similar size.  But either way, awesome rare video, great find!!

HAYMAKER

For someone claiming to know a bit about the noble art of self defence, the interpretation you offered is, ehhh, quite peculiar. If we add the crap posts on 900-pound wild lions and all the rest you picked up in the books written by a man who developed a serious dislike for stripes over time, I can only get to an agenda. We don't like agendas over here. You was told in a pm, you got another warning after a crap post and when that had no effect a one week holiday was the result.  

We met before. It resulted in a ban. I don't mind you giving it another try but it seems you, obsessionwise, didn't learn one thing. My advice is to quit crapping around and start contributing good information. 

And quit the phony questions as well. You want to know about size? Read the extinction and modern weights threads. You want to know about tigers and bears in the Russian far East? Read the extinction thread.

If you continue you way you did, I would start thinking about buying a 900-pound pet lion to keep you company in the near future. One with no mane, so you can get an idea about the muscle department on top of the shoulders.

VIDEO

As to the video. It starts with a sloth bear crossing the road from left to right for a demonstration and it ends with a tiger crossing the road from right to left and no bear to demonstrate. Meaning Baloo didn't have a good day at the office.

Was the exchange a result of predation gone wrong? I didn't see any predation. A tiger doing predation isn't going for a confrontation. A tiger interested in predation will try to get in at an angle and move for a position enabling him to finish the opponent as quickly as possible. He would also show aggression. He most definitely will not allow the intended victim to do a few statements. 

Was it a fight then? In order to get to an opinion, one should have watched a few fights in which tigers were involved. I saw a few and heard a lot more from people who saw much more than all of us combined. A tiger involved in a real fight roars and gives it everything he has. So much so, that it results in a lot of breaks. It's something that can continue for a very long time. Those who witness a real fight very often move out a quick as possible, bars or no bars. I know, because I saw it more than once. The reason? Fear. 

But the bear committed himself, no? No, he didn't. The bear responded in the way every bear would do when suddenly confronted in that he tried to bluff his way out of trouble. This is not something that adult males only do. It's engrained in every bear, young or old, male or female. They stand on their hind legs and attack their opponent with everything they have. Does it work? Most certainly. That's why all of them do it. Same for captive bears.

Tigers, on the other hand, only fight animals they dislike. It would take quite a dislike to go for an all-out. Few tigers will accept a challenge of a bear for no reason at all and bears knows. A bear suddenly confronted by a tiger usually bluffs his way out. But a demonstration is different from a fight. An average male Indian tiger is larger and heavier than an average male sloth bear. Not saying it would be a very one-sided affair, but I've yet to read a report about an adult tiger killed by a sloth bear.   

Although the strategy works for bears most of the time, it has disadvantages. The bear in the video nearly paid when he overplayed his hand. If the tiger would have been committed, it could have ended right at the start of the video. My guess is the bear knew the tiger wasn't committed. A bear of similar size confronted by a smaller tigress with cubs would have thought twice.  

So what was going on then? I don't know, but it seemed like the bear was harrassed. He tried to find a way out and secure a safe retreat. The tiger, as can be seen, avoided direct contact, but not quite in that he didn't intend to pull out of it. Every time the bear came for him, he retreated a bit and laid down. Tigers involved in a confrontation that didn't yet result in a fight often wait for their opponent to make a move. Same with man-eaters and tigers cornered by humans with dogs: they often wait for the other to make a move. It's a game of nerves.

After every demonstration, the tiger moved forward. The distance between both animals never exceeded 30 feet or so. The tiger kept the pressure up, that is. In the end, the bear moved out and that was the end of it. Could have been a conflict about space. Tigers often 'probe' opponents or 'guide' them out of their territory. 

I don't think tigers see sloth bears as competitors, but it's well-known that they do not get along with them. And the other way round. They could be competitors in the dominance department. When things are unclear in this respect, a confrontation can be the result. Some of these can develop into a fight. Billy Arjan Singh heard an angry tigress roar during a lengthy fight one evening. He found the bear next morning. Some male tigers can develop a taste for bears, but incidents of this kind are few and far between in India.

We need a bit more on both animals in order to be able to understand why the confrontation filmed happened. 

What we don't need is preferenced posters with bulky agendas going for misinformation right away. This is a forum. Not some bloody You Tube channel.





Not sure I understand where you're coming from here, just expressing my opinion of what happened in the fight, I don't think its that big of a deal, it was a short exchange, maybe it was a draw, I just thought the bear had the edge in the way it backed up the tiger.  As well I think the strategy of coming in with the head down is particularly smart as it protects the throat area. My view point is slightly jaded in the sense that Ive seen many bear vs tiger accounts, even sloth bears, and the bears almost always won, so when I view this video, it seems to confirm some of that.  The tiger doesn't look like it really wants to tangle with this bear, and even if it could win, I think the bear would mortally wound the tiger in the process.  So the tiger knows that and that's probably why its keep its distance.  And again, if you want proof, there is plenty of it, if you have proof of tigers killing sloth bears just post it.

As far as meeting before or being someone else, who exactly is that, who are you're talking about?  You should prove what you're saying not just speak out of your hat.  As far as the 900 lb lions, I don't actually believe those accounts, that was my conversation with the other guy on here, he doesn't believe the 850 lb tiger either, neither does Craig Lugwig or Sunquist.  I don't either, it says the tiger was probably actually 700 lbs, I could more believe that. I recently just checked one of the biggest recent captive tigers named Conan at Bigcat Habitat, he was around 700lbs or a little over, but it was clear this cat was neutered. Yet another lion there the same weight, was not neutered.  So I think this is informative information.  There is a lot of weights that people are throwing around, and it was not till I saw this guy on yes youtube, did I see the argument made of  debating only scientific weights.
1 user Likes Haymaker's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
#30
( This post was last modified: 03-22-2017, 06:34 AM by Pckts )

Once again @Haymaker you're missing the point. Nobody here needs to prove anything, it's been posted throughout this forum, your refusal to do any leg work is exhausting to read. How many times can we point you in the right direction? 
Do some work yourself, actually read up on accounts and others hard work instead of asking for us to "prove something to you."
When you prove to actually read something and have questions in regards to a specific study then you'd get a better response than just painting with a broad brush with no proof behind it.
Lastly, you're questioning a guy who knows more
 about big cats, big cat/bear interaction and weights than anyone else on this forum. If you actually took the time to read where we've pointed you to go, you'd see that.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
3 users Like Pckts's post
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB