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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-17-2017, 03:06 AM by peter )

(06-16-2017, 11:59 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Betty, Peter, according to last news from 21 April the results from laboratory tests proved that tiger Uporny has been killed by another male tiger, not by brown bear:

http://www.zrpress.ru/society/primorje_2...i-gur.html

I had the page translated, but the result was far from satisfactory. Using the Enigma-machine, I concluded that Uporny, most probably, was killed by another tiger.   

The photograph is interesting in that two of the three present during the autopsy seemed quite shocked by what they saw. Could have been a wound in the throat of Uporny, but that's just a guess. I did read that death was instantaneous.   

The canines of Uporny, a young adult male, were massive. His opponent must have been an impressive male.

I also read a bit about a wild boar kill. Could be important.    

And that's about it.

It would be much appreciated if someone would be able to improve in this respect.

Good find, Wolverine. Many thanks.
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Canada Wolverine Offline
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(06-17-2017, 03:02 AM)peter Wrote:
(06-16-2017, 11:59 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Betty, Peter, according to last news from 21 April the results from laboratory tests proved that tiger Uporny has been killed by another male tiger, not by brown bear:

http://www.zrpress.ru/society/primorje_2...i-gur.html

I had the page translated, but the result was far from satisfactory. Using the Enigma-machine, I concluded that Uporny, most probably, was killed by another tiger.   

The photograph is interesting in that two of the three present during the autopsy seemed quite shocked by what they saw. Could have been a wound in the throat of Uporny, but that's just a guess. I did read that death was instantaneous.   

The canines of Uporny, a young adult male, were massive. His opponent must have been an impressive male.

I also read a bit about a wild boar kill. Could be important.    

And that's about it.

It would be much appreciated if someone would be able to improve in this respect.

Good find, Wolverine. Many thanks.

Yes, results from laboratory autopsy are not satisfactory and that's a bit strange. Since I know Russian and you appear to have interest to this case I'll translate for you the most important passages:
"The conclusion is clear: the dead of the animal was caused by attack of another carnivore. According our version such a carnivore could be another tiger, also quite a big male.
...... The larger tiger appear to be luckier causing to Uporny a wound leading to instantaneous dead."
Nobody talk already about brown bear (the first version from March) but those guys from laboratory surprisingly don't state their conclusion with 100% certainty.

Concerning interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears is very important to take in account the gender of brown bear. As we know there is huge difference between size and weight of male and female brown bears. Ussuri brown bear belong to relatively large subspecie with average weight of adult male of 270 kg and average weight of female of 145 kg (they are probably around 20% heavier and larger  than Yellowstone brown bears (220 kg) and around 30% lighter than giant Alliaska costal brown bears (370 kg). Amur tigers often hunt female brown bears. But it could be quite suicidal for them to hunt adult male brown bear, the price they have to pay is too high. The question is not who is stronger, it would be just stupid. Carnivores are not habituated to risk their life when they hunt. So I mean the bear hunt of Amur tigers is kind of gender based.

Clashes between Siberian tigers and adult male brown bears are also registered but that's nothing to do with hunting, such clashes occur around kill and right to posses a kill and the outcome of such battles is never clear. That's make Russian Ussuriland one of the most interesting places on Earth. And its probably one of the most beautyfull exactly during the autumn when all Ussuri forest cover in so many colors like a Japanese picture. Hopefully one day some very lucky and patient film director will shoot such a battles between those giants.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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Interesting. But what was written about the wild boar found close to Uporny? Was it completely eaten, or partly?

As to the size of brown bears and the interactions between tigers and brown bears. At about similar head and body length (190-200 cm. 'over curves'), male brown bears average close to 600 pounds, whereas male Amur tigers, according to Miquelle, average 430 pounds. Male brown bears, therefore, are heavier and more robust. This should result in an advantage in a fight. It should also result in displaced male Amur tigers. However:

1 - The samples on adult males (6 years and over in tigers and 9 years and over in brown bears) are too small to get to solid conclusions on size.

2 - It's unclear if the brown bear averages I saw were corrected for the effects of season and hibernation.

3 - Although Krechmar, an undisputed authority on bears and tigers in the Russian Far East, thinks a large male brown bear would go unchallenged (some individuals well exceed 1 000 pounds), he also thinks there's little to choose between most male tigers and male brown bears. Fights do not produce consistent winners, he wrote. 

4 - Reliable information about tiger kills, scavenging bears and conflicts suggests that most tigers are not displaced. Most of those that were displaced were females. This, indirectly, confirms the opinion of Krechmar (see -3-). 

5 - A recent article about food habits of Amur tigers posted a week ago (this thread) strongly suggests that bears (black and brown) are more often hunted than was assumed. Based on the tables in the article, the bears hunted are far from small. The outcome of the study, as Kerley and the others concluded, runs counter to the widely held assumption that bears are too dangerous to hunt for tigers.

6 - Although many think that adult males of both species avoid each other, it could be quite different. There are 13 brown bears to every tiger, meaning they are bound to meet each other. For a tiger, it most probably starts at a young age. Young tigers just can't avoid bears, especially at kill sites. For a tiger, a confrontation with a bear either means hunting again or defending a kill. Some will avoid a fight, but others will not. Tiger Boris, not even a young adult male when he was released into the wild, could have been forced into fights with bears interested in his wild boar kills. It resulted in 2 dead bears. Although they were young, a 3-year old brown bear is not a joke. If Boris grows into an adult, chances are he will use his experience to hunt bears. If he tries his luck with an adult bear and the fight is not going his way, he can get out. For a bear, this is more difficult. 

Maybe experienced tigers avoid large bears, but there's no question that some tigers attack larger (heavier) bears at times. If a tigress is able to kill a heavier bear (referring to the 1951-incident near the Tatibe River), so is a male tiger. Although the outcome of a fight between adults could be unclear (no consistent winners, Krechmar wrote), there's no doubt that adults meet and engage at times. Statistics published by Russian researchers show that male tigers have been wounded and killed by male bears and the other way round. 

Psychology could be a factor. Adult male Amur tigers are survivors that don't take an offence lightly. If they are displaced by a larger male brown bear, they might develop a grudge that could result in an all-out fight one day.

The outcome of fights depends on many factors. Two factors that need to be considered are the effects of crop failure and the effect of hibernation. If bears can't fatten up in autumn, they can't hibernate. Most non-hibernating bears don't survive the long winter in the RFE. Those able to hibernate lose 25-35% of their autumn weight. The bear killed by a tigress near the Tatibe River was estimated at about 170 kg. in early May meaning he could have been well over 200 kg. in late autumn. A few years ago, an article was published about Amur brown bears. Two adult males of 8-10 years of age were 180 and 235 kg. in autumn. Weightwise, they could be vulnarable in early spring. 

Something else to consider is inborn dislike and instinct. Captive tigers don't fight other animals for food or domination. They fight animals they dislike. Time and again I noticed that captive Amur tigers dislike bears. They will never really let go of it, until a decision has been reached. Some trainers say that tigers often get involved in fueds, but it could be more primitive than that. If we add planning, which seems to be typical for tigers in particular, the most usual result is an all-out at some stage. The animosity between Amur tigers and brown bears, if it can be described in this way, is way more intense than the animosity between lions and tigers.     

Apart from large male bears, I'd say that things are unclear between adult male Amur tigers and adult male brown bears. I'm sure they meet and I'm also sure they engage at times. The outcome of these bouts is anybody's guess. As Kerley wrote in her mail to 'Jungle Sprout' recently posted in this thread, anything is possible between tigers and bears. Maybe a researcher could get lucky on day, but most clashes will go unnoticed. The Russian Far East, although no longer a 'sea of forest', still is a very large region with few people.
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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(06-20-2017, 08:48 AM)peter Wrote: Interesting. But what was written about the wild boar found close to Uporny? Was it completely eaten, or partly?

As to the size of brown bears and the interactions between tigers and brown bears. At about similar head and body length (190-200 cm. 'over curves'), male brown bears average close to 600 pounds, whereas male Amur tigers, according to Miquelle, average 430 pounds. Male brown bears, therefore, are heavier and more robust. This should result in an advantage in a fight. It should also result in displaced male Amur tigers. However:

1 - The samples on adult males (6 years and over in tigers and 9 years and over in brown bears) are too small to get to solid conclusions on size.

2 - It's unclear if the brown bear averages I saw were corrected for the effects of season and hibernation.

3 - Although Krechmar, an undisputed authority on bears and tigers in the Russian Far East, thinks a large male brown bear would go unchallenged (some individuals well exceed 1 000 pounds), he also thinks there's little to choose between most male tigers and male brown bears. Fights do not produce consistent winners, he wrote. 

4 - Reliable information about tiger kills, scavenging bears and conflicts suggests that most tigers are not displaced. Most of those that were displaced were females. This, indirectly, confirms the opinion of Krechmar (see -3-). 

5 - A recent article about food habits of Amur tigers posted a week ago (this thread) strongly suggests that bears (black and brown) are more often hunted than was assumed. Based on the tables in the article, the bears hunted are far from small. The outcome of the study, as Kerley and the others concluded, runs counter to the widely held assumption that bears are too dangerous to hunt for tigers.

6 - Although many think that adult males of both species avoid each other, it could be quite different. There are 13 brown bears to every tiger, meaning they are bound to meet each other. For a tiger, it most probably starts at a young age. Young tigers just can't avoid bears, especially at kill sites. For a tiger, a confrontation with a bear either means hunting again or defending a kill. Some will avoid a fight, but others will not. Tiger Boris, not even a young adult male when he was released into the wild, could have been forced into fights with bears interested in his wild boar kills. It resulted in 2 dead bears. Although they were young, a 3-year old brown bear is not a joke. If Boris grows into an adult, chances are he will use his experience to hunt bears. If he tries his luck with an adult bear and the fight is not going his way, he can get out. For a bear, this is more difficult. 

Maybe experienced tigers avoid large bears, but there's no question that some tigers attack larger (heavier) bears at times. If a tigress is able to kill a heavier bear (referring to the 1951-incident near the Tatibe River), so is a male tiger. Although the outcome of a fight between adults could be unclear (no consistent winners, Krechmar wrote), there's no doubt that adults meet and engage at times. Statistics published by Russian researchers show that male tigers have been wounded and killed by male bears and the other way round. 

Psychology could be a factor. Adult male Amur tigers are survivors that don't take an offence lightly. If they are displaced by a larger male brown bear, they might develop a grudge that could result in an all-out fight one day.

The outcome of fights depends on many factors. Two factors that need to be considered are the effects of crop failure and the effect of hibernation. If bears can't fatten up in autumn, they can't hibernate. Most non-hibernating bears don't survive the long winter in the RFE. Those able to hibernate lose 25-35% of their autumn weight. The bear killed by a tigress near the Tatibe River was estimated at about 170 kg. in early May meaning he could have been well over 200 kg. in late autumn. A few years ago, an article was published about Amur brown bears. Two adult males of 8-10 years of age were 180 and 235 kg. in autumn. Weightwise, they could be vulnarable in early spring. 

Something else to consider is inborn dislike and instinct. Captive tigers don't fight other animals for food or domination. They fight animals they dislike. Time and again I noticed that captive Amur tigers dislike bears. They will never really let go of it, until a decision has been reached. Some trainers say that tigers often get involved in fueds, but it could be more primitive than that. If we add planning, which seems to be typical for tigers in particular, the most usual result is an all-out at some stage. The animosity between Amur tigers and brown bears, if it can be described in this way, is way more intense than the animosity between lions and tigers.     

Apart from large male bears, I'd say that things are unclear between adult male Amur tigers and adult male brown bears. I'm sure they meet and I'm also sure they engage at times. The outcome of these bouts is anybody's guess. As Kerley wrote in her mail to 'Jungle Sprout' recently posted in this thread, anything is possible between tigers and bears. Maybe a researcher could get lucky on day, but most clashes will go unnoticed. The Russian Far East, although no longer a 'sea of forest', still is a very large region with few people.

@peter

thanks a lot for your valuable information
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 06:40 AM by peter )

PANTHERA TIGRIS ALTAICA 7


7a - The AMUR TIGER PROGRAMME

Before returning to tigers and bears, I decided to post a bit more about the Amur Tiger Programme (ATP). 

As far as I know, there are now two organisations active in the Russian Far East: the Siberian Tiger Project (STP) and the Amur Tiger Programme (ATP).

The Siberian Tiger Project was started in 1992. Although many excellent Russian researchers participated, the Miquelles, Kerleys, Goodriches and Schleiers in particular featured. One reason was a lot of reports. Another was airplay (referring to a number of documentaries and books). They're still going strong. 

The Amur Tiger Project was started in 2008. It's an all-Russian project and it strongly supported by the Russian government. Although mainly directed at research and creating new reserves, developing awareness in Russia is an important goal as well. Based on what I read and saw, I'd say it has succeeded in many ways already.     

Some years ago, I contacted the STP about the cooperation with the ATP. They said it was excellent.   

Have a look at the last two pages in particular. A tigress with cubs needed 900 square km. to survive. Her territory was 9-12 times as large as in India! What more do you need to know about habitat and prey depletion?

In spite of that, I think the commitment to improve the situation has had significant results. Amur tigers now have 160 000 square km. at their disposal and the number of wild tigers is slowly rising. In spite of the tough circumstances (abandoned and/or starving cubs and youngsters are still quite common), Amur tigers, in contrast to Indian tigers, seldom attack humans. Remarkable.  

The next step is improving the conditions. In Russia, this means getting to a settlement with hunters (the number of large prey animals is limited), increasing the number of rangers and adapting legislation. Poaching is far from over (see the previous posts).

So much for the introduction.

Here's the info on the Amur Tiger Programme from their site. I don't like copy and paste, but in this case it couldn't be avoided. It's a bit of a read, but it's well-written, clear and interesting:    



*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

And here, to finish the post, is the link to the site of the Amur Tiger Programme. It's updated at regular intervals:

http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news#
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Canada Wolverine Offline
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(06-20-2017, 08:48 AM)peter Wrote: But what was written about the wild boar found close to Uporny? Was it completely eaten, or partly?

In this article is written that the wild boar was partially eaten:
"Close to the tiger were found remains of wild boar which the tiger didn't succeed to eat completely". But the article is from March when still dominated the point of view that Uporny was killed by brown bear.
http://amurmedia.ru/news/575358/

Yes, Russian Far East is no more "sea of trees", in same time its the only place in the domain of the tiger where human population is decreasing but not increasing due to harsh Russian demographic crisis. This is unique opportunity for tigers. For last 25 years the population of Russian Primorsky Kraj declined from 2,258 million (1989) to 1,956 million in 2010 (see the graphics with red digits), that mean human population declined roughly with 16-17% due to falling birth rate and internal immigration to more prosperous economic regions.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%...0%B0%D0%B9

In same time the human population in tropical Asia increased 1,5 times....
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