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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

United States Garfield Offline
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(05-13-2017, 09:27 AM)sanjay Wrote: Mr @Garfield ,
You have been warned previously, But you still continue with crap hypothetical post about Lion and Tiger fights. We have deleted your posts which talk about Lion fighting tiger.

And this is final warning, one more such post will result in permanent ban on you.


Huh, what up bro, not much love here fo the brother?  Hope um not detecting some racism here, otherwise I might have to get the boys together and protest this here site out in the streets in front of our local news station down town, then the big networks pic it up.  A lot of the reporter bros know us cuz we've been doin some mad protest a lot with Black lives against Trump, so ya know, they do other stuff to, other things in society that show bigotry, will protest dat, I'd watch it bro.  An be careful what you calling crap, lions vs tigers is the stuff of legends, nothing crappy about that unless you want to take it up with Caesar.  Just sayin, keepin it real here bro, like the site and all so far, some good info especially from that guy Rishi.  An hey, we can't help it if they put the lions in Kuna, that article Brother B posted said they're worried about conflicts, that's just natural, the two cats may have to compete, so dat aren't our fault, ok.
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India sanjay Offline
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This is not trump estate, It is forum for good, calm and informative discussion about wildlife. If you want to talk about L vs T debate their is lot of shitty website where you can throw your hypothetical crap. Go an join. We talk about real science and real thing.
Read forum rules before posting -

http://wildfact.com/forum/forum-rules
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India sanjay Offline
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@Garfield,
Look closely the title of this thread, Its about Asiatic lion reintroduction into the wild. You can post anything related to Asiatic lion, But you are posting about Lion chasing tiger and tiger running. This is called crap and it has nothing with this thread.
You love lion ? Thats fine, keep it loving and post about their pictures, videos and scientific research and data. There are many other member here who loves Lion and keep posting about them, they never talk about Lion beating tiger or tiger beating lion, this is bullshit. And if anyone talk here about this we consider him a child brain who is fanatic, so don't be fanatic but instead admire your loving animal by bringing good stuffs about them.
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India sanjay Offline
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Garfield has been banned for 1 month.
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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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This may have been posted before but I can't quite recall.




Were Tigers responsible for driving lions out of India?
Lions migrated out of Africa during the 800–100 thousand years ago into Europe, Asia and North America extending as far south as Peru and becoming the most widespread large terrestrial mammals during the 100–10 thousand years ago.

On the other hand tigers originated in Eastern Asia and than dispersed South, South-west, North and North-west & reached India about 12000 to 16000 years ago, where lions were already present.

Of course increased killing & poaching & loss of habitat due to human population expansion have pushed the lions towards extinction but than the same is applicable to even tigers & in fact tiger's highly valuable skin & body parts are sought for use in traditional Chinese medicine and exotic recipes & this makes them more vulnerable to poaching relatively, so why is it that tigers still occupy more territory than lions in India?

The only factor responsible for this is...... the tiger.

The following are theories that support the notion that tigers are the main reason why lions no longer inhabit India:

"It (the tiger) was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied." [Kesri Singh, Oct. 26, 1955, Experiments in implanting African lions into Madhya Bharat - Journal, Bombay Natural History Society, Vol. 53, (p. 465-46 8)]

"Then the tiger came down from the north-from Siberia and Manchuria-and the lion slowly began to lose ground before that more active animal." [Kenneth Anderson, The Call of the Man-Eater, Chilton Books, Philadelphia and New York, 1961 (p. 210)]

"If tigers arrived in India later than lions, as is possible, then there is every probability that they were the containing factor" [Richard Perry, The World of the Tiger, Atheneum, New York, 1965 (p.165)]

"Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India" [Jack Denton Scott, Speaking Wildly, William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 (p. 256)]

"The lion … reaching northern India before they were halted, presumably by tigers coming from the other direction." [Franklin Russell, The Hunting Animal, Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc., New York, 1983 (p.38)]

"They say it is dangerous for the lions to be in tiger territory. But just eight tigers in Kuno pose no grave threat" [Dionne Bunsha, "A kingdom too small", Frontline , Vol. 22, Issue 10, May 7-20, 2005] Kuno tiger reserve is identified as a proposed translocation site in Madhya Pradesh.

Madhya Pradesh has been trying to lay its hand on a few of Gir’s surplus lions for more than a decade, hoping to move them to a forest near Gwalior, to its Kunopalpur forest reserve.

Gujarat didn’t actually refuse to move lions: It simply did not.

The MP government has since approached the Supreme Court, but Gujarat refuses.

“Why should we give up our lions?” a senior politician argued, requesting anonymity.

Wildlife experts cite another reason. “Lions and tigers can’t stay in the same forest,” said S.K. Nanda, state environment and forest secretary. “There are tigers at Kunopalpur. We won’t sacrifice our lions.”

[In Gir, too many lions, too little space, November 16, 2008, Hindustan Times]
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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Asia/Pacific Region Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-09-2017, 11:19 PM by Rishi )

(07-09-2017, 09:09 PM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: This may have been posted before but I can't quite recall.




Were Tigers responsible for driving lions out of India?
Lions migrated out of Africa during the 800–100 thousand years ago into Europe, Asia and North America extending as far south as Peru and becoming the most widespread large terrestrial mammals during the 100–10 thousand years ago.

On the other hand tigers originated in Eastern Asia and than dispersed South, South-west, North and North-west & reached India about 12000 to 16000 years ago, where lions were already present.

Of course increased killing & poaching & loss of habitat due to human population expansion have pushed the lions towards extinction but than the same is applicable to even tigers & in fact tiger's highly valuable skin & body parts are sought for use in traditional Chinese medicine and exotic recipes & this makes them more vulnerable to poaching relatively, so why is it that tigers still occupy more territory than lions in India?

The only factor responsible for this is...... the tiger.

The following are theories that support the notion that tigers are the main reason why lions no longer inhabit India:

"It (the tiger) was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied." [Kesri Singh, Oct. 26, 1955, Experiments in implanting African lions into Madhya Bharat - Journal, Bombay Natural History Society, Vol. 53, (p. 465-46 8)]

"Then the tiger came down from the north-from Siberia and Manchuria-and the lion slowly began to lose ground before that more active animal." [Kenneth Anderson, The Call of the Man-Eater, Chilton Books, Philadelphia and New York, 1961 (p. 210)]

"If tigers arrived in India later than lions, as is possible, then there is every probability that they were the containing factor" [Richard Perry, The World of the Tiger, Atheneum, New York, 1965 (p.165)]

"Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India" [Jack Denton Scott, Speaking Wildly, William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 (p. 256)]

"The lion … reaching northern India before they were halted, presumably by tigers coming from the other direction." [Franklin Russell, The Hunting Animal, Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc., New York, 1983 (p.38)]

"They say it is dangerous for the lions to be in tiger territory. But just eight tigers in Kuno pose no grave threat" [Dionne Bunsha, "A kingdom too small", Frontline , Vol. 22, Issue 10, May 7-20, 2005] Kuno tiger reserve is identified as a proposed translocation site in Madhya Pradesh.

Madhya Pradesh has been trying to lay its hand on a few of Gir’s surplus lions for more than a decade, hoping to move them to a forest near Gwalior, to its Kunopalpur forest reserve.

Gujarat didn’t actually refuse to move lions: It simply did not.

The MP government has since approached the Supreme Court, but Gujarat refuses.

“Why should we give up our lions?” a senior politician argued, requesting anonymity.

Wildlife experts cite another reason. “Lions and tigers can’t stay in the same forest,” said S.K. Nanda, state environment and forest secretary. “There are tigers at Kunopalpur. We won’t sacrifice our lions.”

[In Gir, too many lions, too little space, November 16, 2008, Hindustan Times]

I've read them, but not here...so you're good.

(Humble request; do read the points openmindedly.)

Anyways the post got me thinking & it seems hypothetical speculation at best, the type where the author (not you) typically concludes what-he-wishes-to-conclude. 
I'll not go into the fact that only about 15% of asian-lion habitat range overlapped with that of tigers'. Letz stick to context ie, Indian subcontinent.

Blame my failure to visualise a scenario where a lone dominant male tiger (however huge may he be) drives his pride-dwelling leonine counterparts to local extinction...but the unlikelyhood tends to infinity.
Chasing out a band of nomadic youngsters, is different from replicating the same with seasoned pride males & matriarchs, keeping in mind the fact that even today, most common pride structure in Greater Gir consists of two male & two female adults...and we are talking about much wilder days when most grassland dominated meadows haven't been taken over by farmlands.

It took me roughly 15seconds to cook up a more probable possibility.

On one hand we have an animal that is a...
  • grassland species,
  • gets into a screaming frenzy each evening,
  • bold (no need to freak out, i meant not-shy) 
  • easily detectable,
  • somewhat lazy & thus show greater affinity to kill cattle,
  • multiple animals found together.
  • known & glorified trophy game of rulers invading from west (eg: GreekoPersians, Arabs, Turks, Mughals, British etc.)
And on the other hand a species that's a...
  • woodland species,
  • mostly silent but for mating calls,
  • shy,
  • even a lot of tribal elders haven't had the honour of seeing one,
  • only the pushovers come to human contact,
  • can be hunted if a bait is (un)lucky or you'll have to beat the whole forest.
  • even today is giving us pleasant surprises as camera traps reveal unknown populations hidden from us (eg: East-Thailand, Northeast India)
In a world ushering into the late gunpowder era (when the present mass extinction started accelerating) it's pretty obvious which one would outlive the other. Tiger hunting in India got more popular after lions had expired.
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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The lion behaviour is the determinant factor able to explain its extinction in India. The lion is the social cat, not discreet, often noisy, bold enough to enter into the villages in order to kill a goat or a cow, and able to lazilly kill some cattle beasts in the forests. On the other hand, the tiger is an very elusive and solitary animal that never penetrates into the villages, and killing some men only if these ones invade its territory, into the deep jungle.

Not amazed to see that the main factor of the growing lion scarcity is the man because of the behaviour of the maned cat.
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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-11-2017, 12:08 AM by Sully )

Well the thing is we simply don't know how the relationship was in the wild, in Russia where bears run from tiger tracks it is not out of the realm of possibility that lions also have the same fear. Big cats often size themselves up and with the lion being a slimmer, leaner cats (especially Asiatics) this could also maybe deter from conflict. The quotes are not unfounded and it's logical to derive there is an accumulative effect in poaching and a stronger cat probably more well equipped to take down prey in an array of habitats would deplete numbers. Of course the majority of the blame is humans however more complex intenal ecological issues are often severer than surface level poaching. Just playing devils advocate here.
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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Asia/Pacific Region Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-11-2017, 11:55 AM by Rishi )

 Latest Update: New development regarding the reintroduction...

Quote:Kuno wildlife sanctuary to be notified national park

TNN | Aug 1, 2017, 12:55 PM IST

BHOPALThe Madhya Pradesh forest department is likely to notify Kuno wildlife sanctuary as a national park — the last condition imposed by a Supreme Court-appointed committee for translocation of Asiatic lions from Gir.

In January this year, Gujarat's forest department had placed its objections before this 12-member committee and demanded that 36 studies be completed before lions can be transferred to MP.
"Converting this wildlife sanctuary into a national park was the last condition we were asked to comply with. So this is being done. I don't think there is anything else left," said a senior official in the forest department.

Issues like prey base, habitat, vegetation and weather are said to be conductive for shifting of lions to Kuno. The MP forest department had promised to complete all formal processes of declaring Kuno as a 'national park' by the end of February, but failed to do so following varied administrative problems. "The notification declaring Kuno as a national park is likely to be issued in a few days" said the officer, adding there won't be any further delay. The expert committee had visited Kuno last December.
After spending nearly five hours at the sanctuary, the panel members found the atmosphere in Kuno-Palpur conducive to the shifting of lions." Gujarat, too, could not question much on MP's preparedness to host the lions.



Gujarat government had moved a curative petition in Supreme Court as its last legal resort to retain its Asiatic lions. This was also dismissed. But then in another blow to MP's hopes, two Gujarat-based NGOs filed separate petitions challenging translocation of lions to Kuno.
When shortage of prey base was cited as one of the major objections, the state declared 700 sq km as a protected area to resolve the issue. Sources said the prey base, which was presented before the court in 2013, was nearly 350 sq. km, which is the core sanctuary area. While MP won the eight-year-long legal battle with Gujarat in 2013, the latter had been dilly-dallying compliance.
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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India sanjay Offline
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Great news,
This show how mean is Gujarat Forest department. They can give lions of useless etawah lion safari, but do not want to give it to MP
"There is pleasure in the pathless woods, there is rapture in the lonely shore, there is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar; I love not Man the less, but Nature more" --Lord Byron
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Asia/Pacific Region Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-14-2017, 12:04 PM by Rishi )

(08-11-2017, 02:59 PM)sanjay Wrote: Great news,
This show how mean is Gujarat Forest department. They can give lions of useless etawah lion safari, but do not want to give it to MP

It is understandable though. Gujarat will have to part with atleast 50 individuals over the next 25years to assure genetic variety of the MP lions.
I don't expect them to be looking forward to it.

Although, they could actually exchange lions for tigers. The Dangs forests used to house a tigers if i'm not mistaken. Maybe that's what'll happen, let's wait & watch...
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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Canada Wolverine Offline
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(08-11-2017, 02:59 PM)sanjay Wrote: This show how mean is Gujarat Forest department. They can give lions of useless etawah lion safari, but do not want to give it to MP

Gujarati authorities are living in the Stone Age, not in 21 century.
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Asia/Pacific Region Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 12:35 PM by Rishi )

This felt like a better thread to reply...

(08-18-2017, 09:00 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Thank you for your informative answer Rishi! So you think there is no potential habitat for lions outside Khatiawar peninsula? What about Rann of Kutch, maybe local 4000 strong Indian wild ass population could feed several lion prides?
Correction...We have about 5000 of them (4800 & increasing, as of 2015).

Anyways, the sites i'd identified HERE are as good a potential (& past) lion habitat as any. Better than where they live now.

This is a population distribution map of the state of Gujarat... 

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, that^^ shows that the lions have been avoiding the  more developed townships & preferring the agro-pastoral areas...despite the latter having a higher number of people scattered all over the countryside
The landuse pattern & availablity of natural patches seems to have a greater effect than the population density!

They'll reach Rann-of-Kutchh, with time, hopefully through the scrublands east of Rajkot (marked 26). But further eastwards into India...i doubt it.
The region in between is the largest industrial belt of India. 

So, if we want lions out of Kathiawar, they need to be artificially relocated.
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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