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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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 (05-10-2017, 09:15 AM)Rishi Wrote:He's been to Ranth but is going to gir/Ranth in June but he's well connected and knows many who've been to both. He's a resident of pune and has been going to reserves all his life so he's pretty well known but like I was saying. About Kahna/pench/Tadoba, they are forests first and foremost. Not a chance that a pride of lions thrives there or even a coalition of males, they'd make a ton of noise and being lions, they'd be easy to spot and gypsies would pester them constantly. You don't see tigers until you hear a call and even then it's rare, you may know where one was spotted the other day and go back there and get lucky but again, very rare. Tigers are so elusive it's frustrating, you have to get extremely lucky to spot one, no matter the reserve. There is no guarantee.(05-10-2017, 08:31 AM)Pckts Wrote: Spoke with my guide on the subject, ranthambhore is like Tadoba in landscape but even more hilly, gir is open, dry and has little to no tree cover, much like the African terrain, I have major doubt that you can find suitable habitat for both in one place. Also, every park I went to has "open plains" or meadows but they're surrounded by dense forest and prey isn't andundent there like in Africa, no way it would support pride life and they'd still need to travel through the dense forest in search of prey, I see no way for both to coexist in the same territory unless one adapts the others way of life depending on where it is.  (05-10-2017, 09:55 AM)Pckts Wrote: He's been to Ranth but is going to gir/Ranth in June but he's well connected and knows many who've been to both. He's a resident of pune and has been going to reserves all his life so he's pretty well known but like I was saying. About Kahna/pench/Tadoba, they are forests first and foremost. Not a chance that a pride of lions thrives there or even a coalition of males, they'd make a ton of noise and being lions, they'd be easy to spot and gypsies would pester them constantly. You don't see tigers until you hear a call and even then it's rare, you may know where one was spotted the other day and go back there and get lucky but again, very rare. Tigers are so elusive it's frustrating, you have to get extremely lucky to spot one, no matter the reserve. There is no guarantee. Ok..he sounds like someone who should really be on Wildfact!!!  Anyway, if that's the case, then I guess the region of Gir i went to from Junagadh, was more forested... There were 2males, 3females with couldn't-see-how-many cubs sitting inside a thicket & my sh!t camera could only focus on leaves.
He will be, he was very interested in it. Most guides and naturalists use group WhatsApp to know the most up to date sightings and in which zone or reserve. That being said, there's no better source of info than a guide or driver, a naturalist is 2nd to them. Guides and drivers are locals and they spend every day in the reserves, naturalists will go when they have clients but guides & drivers are always there.
 (05-10-2017, 10:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: He will be, he was very interested in it. Most guides and naturalists use group WhatsApp to know the most up to date sightings and in which zone or reserve. That being said, there's no better source of info than a guide or driver, a naturalist is 2nd to them. Guides and drivers are locals and they spend every day in the reserves, naturalists will go when they have clients but guides & drivers are always there. Yes its true. Guides have all the knowledge about the park they work in. When I went to Ranthambore zone 2 morning safari our canter was the last one to enter and bit late. By the time we were inside most vehicles were returning and there had been no tiger sighting till then in the zone. People in our canter too thought that we will be dissapointed. Just then a last vehicle was passing by. Both our guide and the other guide shared some info and went separate ways. And then our guide asked the driver to take a slightly non rountine route. and within 10 minutes we reached a place where we saw a full tiger family. So yes any person like that would be such a good addition to the forum. and my guide had all the information about most of the tigers. I also asked about what he and others feel about the Ustaad saga. Surprisingly he sided with the tiger(so do I) and was bent on explaining how the park lost a wonderful specimen because of people's stubborn attitude during the whole episode.
Although, i see no reason for prides to abandon the most common pattern of 2 males & 2 females...still, i'd advise not underestimating the size of pride those patchy grasslands surrounded by forests might house!!
After all preybase is a big determining factor & the density-variety of prey species are SAME in both cases Kuno & Gir (Actually better in Kuno, being devoid of people & predators)  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author As of now, all we can do other than speculate, is wait...  
Hmmmmm @Rishi there seems to be some areas for dispersal for both these cats then, but buffer zones are tricky- they are mostly used only as part of the main territory, i know lions in Gir are a differnent story but where poachers are rife, buffers are best used as a fleeting temporary shelters. So all in all there should be atleast around a hundred lions to make it a feasible translocation but as much as i like it -the two biggest cats living in the same territory, it will test both cats being so equal in terms of power and at the apex of the food chain. And like @Pckts said i also think basically these two cats require two different habitat types with some negligible overlaps, the question is would that area be enough to contain breading population of both cats in the long run?
..i hv no idea iam in the wait and see mode right now. (05-11-2017, 07:23 PM)Jimmy Wrote: Hmmmmm @Rishi there seems to be some areas for dispersal for both these cats then, but buffer zones are tricky- they are mostly used only as part of the main territory, i know lions in Gir are a differnent story but where poachers are rife, buffers are best used as a fleeting temporary shelters. So all in all there should be atleast around a hundred lions to make it a feasible translocation but as much as i like it -the two biggest cats living in the same territory, it will test both cats being so equal in terms of power and at the apex of the food chain. And like @Pckts said i also think basically these two cats require two different habitat types with some negligible overlaps, the question is would that area be enough to contain breading population of both cats in the long run? Yes, my points EXACTLY!!!..
While his own mate & cubs are miles away... However, in open scrub/grasslands, the pride males would spend more time together & with females, as they don't need patrol every nook & corner, thanks to better visibility. There he could be overrun by sheer numbers... POACHING IS A WAAAAAAAAY GREATER THREAT 
From post #1... http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/article_7...f887a.html
Tiger-Lion Conflict Looms Large in Kuno-Ranthambore I believe that they will seldom have any trouble if they have enough territory to roam. Both cats require lots of acreage for hunting. Is there enough land free of human habitat for both lions and tigers? (05-13-2017, 03:02 AM)brotherbear Wrote: From post #1... http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/article_7...f887a.html He Brother B. sweet article, I'm going to check that out, good find man, hold on just need to read through it. Can't believe this stuff is now officially in the papers, cool, dis is legit. (05-13-2017, 03:02 AM)brotherbear Wrote: From post #1... http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/article_7...f887a.html Well, actually you should check-out #247 & #251 for details. Kuno & Palpur are two seperate sanctuaries. Intially the size was 350sq.kms. Then the state of Gujrat, in its desperate attampt for resistance, pointed out that it was too small.. it's a tiger corridor..local people had anti-social tendencies..some locals had guns..etc etc. So, the sanctuary size was doubled (It's a part of a 5000sq.kms+ forest complex) by adding a buffer zone. ALL local tribals (mostly Maldharis, like Gir) were relocated & Kuno has been lying around for years & has some of the highest preybase now... Ranthambore transients sometimes passed through, but didn't settle in absence of females... (05-13-2017, 05:25 AM)Garfield Wrote: Ok I just read the paper, I mean what the hey!! Who is this Chavda guy, is like he going to put the breaks on this thing? This was also 2014 paper, has anything changed since then. I can understand with these bros worries, they think the lion will attack the tigers and decrease their population, yeah but they are forgetting tigers are fast runners, you can see it on youtube, when da lions winning they turn tail. So I mean like, they may not have to worry these wildlife ppl, the tigers may survive. But the lions will probably gain supremacy yeah, but it don't mean the tigers will have to die, at least not all of em. So this is annoying, I mean these cats should be aloud to live in the same place, that's where they all were born, hey didn't the lion originate like in India before Africa anyways. I gut like a lot of India people walking around my apartment complex honestly I should ask them. Someone should talk to that Chavad guy and tell him hey man whats up, why you doin this, these lions gut a live to bro. Seriously what up with dis, and if Rishi is right I mean that's enough land fo both to live, if there fights its only natural, just like say a leopard bro havin to battle some lions or tigers. I mean what are we doin babying nature, dat not legit, that's fake. We removed the lions by killin em off stupidly, time to put those bros back where they belong, tigers and all. Straight up!Allowed to live in the same place but u should know these cats live in slightly different habitat and Asiatic lions were not born/existed in every place in India, they didn't conquer South or Northern India, Nepal or Assam -there is no historic record of it. They may not have had to share territories due to more space and availability of preferred habitat. Things are different now, which is why they are considering a place similar to Gir. As for fights, Time has changed-both cats are endangered, they have to get adjusted to what habitat they are left with and one whole species at stake if anything happens to either of them. Between these two species Not only fights and territories but disease transmission is a real possibility. Leopards living with tigers and lions are different matter cuz they target smaller preys has an ability to climb trees and stack the kill, tries to avoid larger competitors-always on the run, largely go unnoticed cuz of smaller size also they prefer fringe areas less dominated by tigers as studies have shown. In the case of Lions and Tigers, they will share the same territory-scent mark the same turf, likely challenge each other, look for the same prey, defend their kill sites with violence if not leave the territory for good and run into each other more than once. Although, i feel upset with the Guzarat state's refusal, i can totally see the concern and caution taken by the authorities regarding this matter cause this is entirely new case for all scientists and experts. Nobody wants to be blamed and nobody knows precisely what to expect, like- Is Kuno a tiger's-first choice habitat or a lion's-first choice habitat and will it allow for a big pride to form for defence etc etc. During the starting phase it will likely go smoothly with plenty of space and prey but it will get intense as their numbers rise and during the dispersal process of young individuals when they will encounter another apex species and vice versa. 
Mr @
You have been warned previously, But you still continue with crap hypothetical post about Lion and Tiger fights. We have deleted your posts which talk about Lion fighting tiger. And this is final warning, one more such post will result in permanent ban on you. (05-13-2017, 08:18 AM)Jimmy Wrote: Although, i feel upset with the Guzarat state's refusal, i can totally see the concern and caution taken by the authorities regarding this matter cause this is entirely new case for all scientists and experts. Nobody wants to be blamed and nobody knows precisely what to expect, like- Is Kuno a tiger's-first choice habitat or a lion's-first choice habitat and will it allow for a big pride to form for defence etc etc. During the starting phase it will likely go smoothly with plenty of space and prey but it will get intense as their numbers rise and during the dispersal process of young individuals when they will encounter another apex species and vice versa. That statement might not be very true...Also the Indian records of natural history, suggest the dominance of lions was restricted from the Northwestern open river valleys to the western desert & adjoining arid lands...Mostly Punjab & Western UP. It never reached (or, as per another school of thought, were pushed back from) further south towards Vindhyas. The kingdom of Kota, today's North western forest complex, was the only place where they coexisted..looks pretty successfully. WESTERN Indian colloqial languages can't even differentiate well between the two...Both are called "Sher" & the Goddess can be depicted on either.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Moving on to more proper accounts. Here's an old parchment from a king's journal...  *This image is copyright of its original author Lavish Royal "hunts" by the Princes & the Ladies.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author IF YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED, A LOT OF THE TIGERS WERE IN PAIRS, ALMOST IN ALL POTRAYALS. I think it could have been a behavioral adaptation... (05-13-2017, 09:37 AM)Rishi Wrote:(05-13-2017, 08:18 AM)Jimmy Wrote: Although, i feel upset with the Guzarat state's refusal, i can totally see the concern and caution taken by the authorities regarding this matter cause this is entirely new case for all scientists and experts. Nobody wants to be blamed and nobody knows precisely what to expect, like- Is Kuno a tiger's-first choice habitat or a lion's-first choice habitat and will it allow for a big pride to form for defence etc etc. During the starting phase it will likely go smoothly with plenty of space and prey but it will get intense as their numbers rise and during the dispersal process of young individuals when they will encounter another apex species and vice versa. What is to make out of it? it's not a scientific depiction and royalties could have roamed their vast state to hunt down their beast of choice so one day they could have hunted tiger in one part then traveled to another part and hunted lions- and consecutively, the artists just depicting the sequence. Western Indian colloquial languages calling both species a sher as in shere khan might just be that they named one species which they were familiar with then they saw another species which was simialr behaved similarly and so later and named it the same- it has happened with giant and red pandas and various leopards (also sometimes applies to cheetah) in present times. In those pics the depiction of lions with black bucks or blue bull make sense and suggests lion preferred dry woodland and open grass country while a pair of tiger frequently drawn could be an assumption-i.e. they just translated what they saw in lions. For your kind information even Tibetans prayer flag depict tigers and snow lions-could be a snow leopard but depicted as a lion. However, my point here is not that they did not existed anywhere, there would be some territory overlaps but atleast there was so much intact forest and grassland left in those days that each cat could have moved to their choice location without much interference which in present context will be difficult to maintain not initially but when both species of cats try to disperse and find a new territory. |
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