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+--- Thread: Skulls, Skeletons, Canines & Claws (/topic-skulls-skeletons-canines-claws)
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-01-2016
Amur tiger
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RE: Bear Canine Teeth and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-01-2016
Brown bear
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RE: Bear Canine Teeth and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-01-2016
Polar bear
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - peter - 11-02-2016
(10-31-2016, 11:52 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I think the fluid presents the blood vessels and nerves, since the young tigers may require a lot of these in order to absorb more nutrition to grow their teeth.
And the older tigers may require less nutrition for teeth growth, and the cavity becomes smaller. And with less blood vessels and nerves flow within it, the teeth could turn into the less whitening coloration.
I am not a biologist, maybe @peter could provide you an even more elaborate answer.
I saw my dentist today and showed him the exchange. He thought Grizzly's answer could be quite close.
Some years ago, I watched a tooth operation on a sedated former circus tiger in the facility I visited every now and then. He was one of a band of 3 brothers. Based on what I heard and saw, my guess was he belonged to Panthera circus almost sumatrae. Although well past his prime, he was very fit. They first noticed something was wrong when he quit the usual fights (the brothers fought about every second day, they told me). When he added a loss of appetite and started losing weight, they called the dentist.
The dentist picked me up a few days later. The tiger, about 115-120 kg. (255-266 lbs.), was sedated in the early part of the evening. The dentist quickly decided the Pm4 had to go. It took a lot of severe equipment to get it out, though. The molar was so big and so firmly embedded, it had to be split first. The dentist used a small saw (...). The extraction itself took two big man. This to tell you big cats have terrible teeth.
I wasn't the only one who watched the operation. When I had to move to the other side of the table, I suddenly felt a big paw around my waist. I was first pulled to the cage and then gently, but firmly, pushed aside by one of the brothers of the tiger. They were very interested in the proceedings.
After an hour and a half or so, we put the tiger in his cage. His brothers 'prusted' when we entered the cage with their brother. Two days later, the tiger showed as much appetite for a good brawl as always. Mission completed.
The director told me their fights were the most terrible he had seen. And he had seen a lot. Their former boss, a seasoned trainer, had told him he had no option but to let them go. He really regretted it, but they ruined his show more often than not. They always entered the arena in good spirits, but not to please the trainer. The reason was they liked to 'interact' with the other cats and bears. Yes, they performed in mixed acts. The unusual thing was they cooperated. It really was a band of brothers. They attacked everything available and always went for the kill. Apart from shocked audiences, it resulted in plenty of casualties. An expensive undertaking, one could say. One day, the director of the circus told him enough was enough.
When discussing the story with the dentist on the way back, he confirmed he had seen two of their victims in the facility. There had been more, but these two had survived the unslaught. For some time only, though. Injured big cats also perish as a result of infections. I saw a tigress who had been cut by a male lion. Just the one little cut, but it resulted in an infection and the vet was unable to help her. She died in a week. This to confirm that iron bars can't prevent big cats from killing each other (and other animals) when they really want to. Remember the story about a big cat killed in Turkey some years ago? Not saying it was true, but based on what I heard it seems quite possible.
Directors, trainers and keepers often are reluctant to talk about the things they see. It's bad publicity and they don't want to be accused of imcompetence. I'm not saying every trainer saw his fair share of dead animals, but fights are not as rare as many think. Some animals are born fighters or killers. There's not much you can do and size most definitely is not as important as we think. When it is debated, I often say the opposite (size matters), but this is only true when both are similar in age and size and the fight is fair. Most fights, however, are anything but that. Some animals just hate each other and watch each other all the time. The moment you lose your concentration, just for a second, you're finished.
Apart from well-equipped large killers, there are those who start a free-for-all at every possible opportunity. Although often much smaller than their opponents, some of them are deadly as well. I read a few accounts of mixed acts with wolves and smallish leopards acting as triggers and killers. Initially, I was surprised. After I saw a few things myself, I rapidly changed my mind. People like dangerous animals in particular to be nice and friendly. They're often served. I mean, the number of reports about friendly tigers and lions is countless. The problem is these reports create an image that is far from complete. Captive animals, carnivores or herbivores, are far from harmless. Some animals are outright dangerous. The public, not prepared to handle reality, doesn't want to know about it and the result is more episodes with friendly tigers and lions.
Experienced trainers know things can go wrong at any moment. At times, you can see it coming, but most of the time you can't. When they go for it, trainers can't intervene when it's serious. They can (and do) when they know both don't really want to fight, but he better moves out of the way when they go for the kill. They could destroy him in seconds. He knows and they know. Better believe me. When they're done, he can play his part, but that's about it. Trainers, of course, can prevent repetitions.
Anyhow. We was talking teeth. When wild big cats reach their prime, their teeth often are in excellent shape. They're not as long as before, but they're solid and firmly embedded. After years of heavy use, they become discoloured, damaged and blunt. Although it may seem different, these blunt canines remain strong for a long time. Wild tigers who lose one or more canines seldom starve. One male Amur tiger, the famous brown bear killer 'Dale', lost three of his canines and quite a bit of weight. Some time later, however, he was in excellent shape again. With one canine only.
What I'm saying is it took an experienced dentist a lot of time and energy to extract a large molar from a smallish captive tiger. Now try to imagine the strength of the teeth of wild tigers. Real large wild tigers.
A few remarks to finish the post. There's no question that Amur tigers have the longest canines in absolutes. Sumatran tigers, however, could have the longest in relatives. It's one of the most remarkable differences between Sumatran and Javan tigers. Lions, however, have the largest molars (pm4) and the longest mandibulas.
RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-03-2016
@Kingtheropod do you have more measurement of the liger canines?
I wonder how they do compare with those giant Amur tigers in the canine department.
BTW, here is the giant Amur canine in comparison with the resin cast of a large male liger canine from a 16.75 inches skull holotype.
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-04-2016
African lion
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-04-2016
African lion
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - parvez - 11-04-2016
@peter Thanks peter.
RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-04-2016
African lion
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-08-2016
Amur tiger
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RE: Bear Canine Teeth and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-08-2016
Brown bear
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-10-2016
Tiger skull
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RE: Bear Canine Teeth and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-10-2016
Asiatic Black bear
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RE: Big Cat's Canines and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-12-2016
African lion
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RE: Bear Canine Teeth and Claws - GrizzlyClaws - 11-13-2016
Grizzly bear
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