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+----- Thread: Desert Lions (/topic-desert-lions)
RE: Desert Lions - Hello - 12-11-2021
Robust Kalahari!
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Desert Lions - curious - 02-27-2022
(08-21-2015, 02:23 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Just a side point, it is interesting that there is not a single story, poem, draw or anything about a lion vs tiger account in India, until the arrival of the British (the Mahabharata and the Ramayana mentions tigers fighting against other tigers, but tigers and lions in combat with one another are not mentioned). It seems that tigers and lions managed to live without conflicts and had a perfectly well separated habitat. It was the humans and they lust for fights, that had put them in conflict, and only in human-made areas. Nature is not as sick as the human mind.
Greetings to all, I was reading this thread, and noticed the quoted claim, which is not true. Take a look at this section of Ramayana:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0174/_PD.HTM. Let me quote the part that is relevant to this discussion:
"Let not Rama in his rancour shed a younger brother's blood,
As the lion slays the tiger in the deep and echoing wood!"
RE: Desert Lions - GuateGojira - 02-28-2022
(02-27-2022, 07:15 PM)curious Wrote: Greetings to all, I was reading this thread, and noticed the quoted claim, which is not true. Take a look at this section of Ramayana:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0174/_PD.HTM. Let me quote the part that is relevant to this discussion:
"Let not Rama in his rancour shed a younger brother's blood,
As the lion slays the tiger in the deep and echoing wood!"
It is not me, but Romila Thapar the one that said that. She is one of the TOP experts in Indian litterature in her country and definitelly knows more about they litterature than us. You can check this in the great book "Tiger the ultimate guide" of Valmik Thapar from 2004.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
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There you go!
RE: Desert Lions - curious - 03-02-2022
Yeah, thanks for clarification, but that expert obviously didn't read Ramayana and Mahabharata carefully.
Here is another account from Mahabharata, very similar to Ramayana verse:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0175/_P2D.HTM#9K. Quote from that page: "Peerless bowman! mighty monarch! nations still his hests obeyed,
As a lion slays a tiger, Bhima hath Duryodhan slayed!
RE: Desert Lions - GuateGojira - 03-02-2022
(03-02-2022, 03:59 AM)curious Wrote: Yeah, thanks for clarification, but that expert obviously didn't read Ramayana and Mahabharata carefully.
Here is another account from Mahabharata, very similar to Ramayana verse:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0175/_P2D.HTM#9K. Quote from that page: "Peerless bowman! mighty monarch! nations still his hests obeyed,
As a lion slays a tiger, Bhima hath Duryodhan slayed!
As I said, Romina Thapar is one of the TOP experts in history and litterature in India, check her:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Romila Thapar (born 30 November 1931) is an Indian historian. Her principal area of study is ancient India, a field in which she is pre-eminent.[1] Thapar is a Professor of Ancient History, Emerita, at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi.
Thapar's special contribution is the use of social-historical methods to understand change in the mid-first millennium BCE in northern India. As lineage-based Indo-Aryan pastoral groups moved into the Gangetic Plain, they created rudimentary forms of caste-based states. The epics Ramayana and the Mahabharata, in her analysis, offer vignettes of how these groups and others negotiated new, more complex, forms of loyalty in which stratification, purity, and exclusion played a greater if still fluid role.[2]
The author of From Lineage to State, Asoka and the Decline of the Mauryas, Early India: From Origins to AD 1300, and the popular History of India, Part I, Thapar has received honorary doctorates from the University of Chicago, the University of Oxford, Institut National des Langues et Civilisations Orientales, Paris, the University of Edinburgh, the University of Calcutta, the University of Hyderabad, Brown University, and the University of Pretoria.
Thapar is an Honorary Fellow of the School of Oriental and African Studies, London, where she also received her Ph.D. in 1958, and a Foreign Honorary Member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 2008, Romila Thapar shared the US Library of Congress's Kluge Prize, for Lifetime Achievement in the Humanities and Social Sciences.[3]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romila_Thapar
I highly doubth that she will publish something and not reading it. In fact is IMPOSSIBLE that she, been an expert, has not read these two books, in original, not only in translation to English. Also, I was checking the copy of the Ramayana that I have (in Spanish) and it not mention anything about lion vs tiger, it mention only that Kekekyi asked to Rama to not kill his brother. Also in the prologue, Teresa E Rhode quotes Romila Thapar and her book "A History of India" from 1966. So I have some doubts that there is something incorrect in the English translations. Plus I checked the quotes made of these books of Divyabhanusing "The Story of the Asia's Lions" and also do not mention this, just some pictures from Moghuls that put the lion as a king above the tiger, but just that.
Interestingly, the copies that you quote are from 1890's and came from Brithish which kept the history like a poem, so I will like to see the original history in the original languaje because I am not going to question the work of a real expert in Indian history based in the old translation from people of another country and also with the fact that in Spanish is a completelly different description of the same events.
For now, I stay with Romila Thapar and her conclution, after all, British had a lot of propaganda on those days and I will not be surprised if they changed some things in the original scriptures.
RE: Desert Lions - LandSeaLion - 03-03-2022
The fact that the verses have been made to rhyme in English makes me think some poetic license was probably taken with them.
On topic - this was probably already posted before somewhere in this long thread, but I found it fascinating that the desert-dwelling lions on the Namibian coast have adapted to hunt seals (article from 2019).
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/28/lions-adapted-hunt-seals-seabirds-namibia-study
The Desert Lion Conservation Trust later posted a video of a pair of lionesses hunting seals on the coast (2020):
RE: Desert Lions - curious - 03-03-2022
The author / translator was not British, it was the famous Indian civil servant, economic historian, writer and translator of Ramayana and Mahabharata
Romesh Chunder Dutt.
Dutt is considered a national leader of the pre-Gandhian era. More about him here :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romesh_Chunder_Dutt.
So, much much more reputable Indian person than Romina, not even comparable to her, since he is a kind of a national hero in India.
Of course, everyone can believe in anything, some people still believe the Earth is flat.
RE: Desert Lions - LandSeaLion - 03-04-2022
Please see this (I made a new thread because this conversation is wildly off-topic from "Desert lions").
RE: Desert Lions - GuateGojira - 03-04-2022
(03-03-2022, 10:12 PM)curious Wrote: The author / translator was not British, it was the famous Indian civil servant, economic historian, writer and translator of Ramayana and Mahabharata
Romesh Chunder Dutt.
Dutt is considered a national leader of the pre-Gandhian era. More about him here :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romesh_Chunder_Dutt.
So, much much more reputable Indian person than Romina, not even comparable to her, since he is a kind of a national hero in India.
Of course, everyone can believe in anything, some people still believe the Earth is flat.
You can't never say that a person is more reputable than other, she is an expert and she provided her studies which are used by several experts in the world. Different times, different studies, somethimes old studies can be correct by modern ones, that is how all sciences works. Also, there are several translations of those books before Romesh done his one and several versions of the same history by the way. Finally, you are showing a lack of respect to experts here, specially for a person that is not an expert in Indian litterature.
Also, you are right, there is still people out there that believe that Earth is flat, just like other people that still believe that the "lion vs tiger" debate is important and that a poetic phrase is evidence of real natural behaviour.
RE: Desert Lions - GuateGojira - 03-04-2022
(03-04-2022, 02:37 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote: Please see this (I made a new thread because this conversation is wildly off-topic from "Desert lions").
Thank you for that topic. I will read it now.
RE: Desert Lions - Hello - 05-04-2023
Black maned male from Kalahari.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Credits: Peter Delaney
RE: Desert Lions - Brahim - 10-15-2023
Great recent captures of this black maned male who is one of two brothers who make up the Urikaruss males. Second photo couple days ago he was in a fight
Photographer Credit - Andre Gersdorf & Stella stewart
RE: Desert Lions - BigLion39 - 10-16-2023
Such a gorgeous lion!
RE: Desert Lions - Brahim - 04-04-2024
It has been three years since I posted this stunning black and gold maned Kalahari lion. Now looking older with more scars and a split nose but still a beauty. Seen recently in the Kwang area with his brother and pride.
Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park,
Kalahari, South Africa
- Photographer Credit -
Kruger Gone Wild Safaris
RE: Desert Lions - Brahim - 04-04-2024
Here is the same male 3 years ago in 2021 in his prime and another 3 of him younger with his brother on his nomadic journey.
Credit: e f Photography and Gergard Steenkemp