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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - DARK MANE - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 01:49 PM)veritas Wrote: Wait, I'm a little confused right now.
BYM was a friend of Mhangeni bigboy?
Is it Nkuhuma young male?
Isn't BYM about five years old?
No. I think u are confusing bym with nkuhuma male.
See, birmingham young male was born in birmingham pride in August 2016. He was sired by Brutus and gang  ( father of avocas). He has nothing to do with late birmingham males .
Nkuhuma male was born in nkuhuma pride in second half of 2016. Sired by late birmingham males ( probably mfumo). In 2019, when N.avocas take over the nkuhumas, he was kicked out of pride. Then he make bond with bigboy mangheni ( oldest boy among FAMOUS 12 manghenis, died on 30th November 2019).
And yeah, as u can see, both are not 5 but 6.5 yrs old

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - criollo2mil - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 01:49 PM)veritas Wrote: Wait, I'm a little confused right now.
BYM was a friend of Mhangeni bigboy?
Is it Nkuhuma young male?
Isn't BYM about five years old?

I know it gets confusing when there is a lazy approach to naming lions. In this case BYM is the same lion as Nkuhuma (who was with Big Boy). It is not BYM who is with Torchwood as the Mongawane.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Potato - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 04:37 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: I know it gets confusing when there is a lazy approach to naming lions
I do not see how is it confusing. If you see male named "Birmingham male" you already at least know from which pride he came from - Birmingham pride. I think it would be harder to get to know male lions around if all the males would have different, random names.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 03-08-2023

That works until there are two or three of them.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - criollo2mil - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 05:50 PM)Potato Wrote:
(03-08-2023, 04:37 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: I know it gets confusing when there is a lazy approach to naming lions
I do not see how is it confusing. If you see male named "Birmingham male" you already at least know from which pride he came from - Birmingham pride. I think it would be harder to get to know male lions around if all the males would have different, random names.

But Nkuhuma was not born into the Birmingham Pride. So you’re proving my point.

I think the recycling of the names just causes confusion.

the case w Nkuhuma is the west addresses him as Young Birmingham Male to distinguish him from Nhenha. We that follow closely have little issue. But I can see new comers or future researchers becoming twisted and confused.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 03-08-2023

It would have been much simpler if they just didnt all of a sudden start refer to him as a Birmingham male at all.

Honestly. Either give them unique names or start using numbers.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Potato - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 08:24 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: But Nkuhuma was not born into the Birmingham Pride.  So you’re proving my point.  

I think the recycling of the names just causes confusion.
Ok, then you are referring calling Nhenha/Nkuchama duo as Birmingham males and Ximunghwe/Othawa breakaway female duo as Ximughwes then I 100% agree that it is dumb and should never take place. In my previous comment I assumed you are referring to common naming male by the name of the pride from which they came from.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Cath2020 - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 12:33 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions don't get sexual education, so they dont really connect childbirth with sex. Nor do they have a concept of time. 
So whichever coalition that happens to be around to when the cubs are introduced isn't going to count back the months to see if they could be the father. 

Its more likely going to depend on whether or not they are willing or able to form an emotional connection with the cubs.

She may luck out and every male ends up accepting the cubs. 
Though most likely the cubs end up having the scent of the male that they are first introduced to. Resulting in the other males rejecting them when they come around. 

I am not optimistic about their chances.


Your continual use of 'sex' in relation to animals sounds a bit inappropriate and out-of-place.  In addition, you have used 'horny' even.  These words are used for humans on an informal level (wouldn't even use them on boards such as these in reference to people.  It's because we are not on THAT familiar terms around unknown posters, and feels weird all-around), and we wouldn't usually use these words for lions or any other animals.  Most would use terms like 'mate', 'estrous,' 'in heat, etc.'   It's also part of anthropomorphizing animals unobjectively. I remember someone else calling you out on this, too. 

Studies have shown male lions know subconsciously about how long a pregnancy should take and if the lionesses do not time their births very well, the males might not be fooled.  I'm not sure how savvy these 2 lionesses are to be hanging out so easily with 3 different coalitions and expecting all of them to believe they are 100% the sires, but that is essentially what they will try to accomplish.  They could very well have played a winning game if they know the males' characters and timed it quite convincingly.  Will be exciting to see how it all ends up once the cubs make their arrival.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 03-08-2023

I was only refering to the names given to specific lions. Not to prides and coalitions. 

The Ximhungwe name makes perfect sense as Gingerella joined the Ximhungwe lioness. Ximhungwe is an adult experienced lioness that was already in that area long before Gingerella was even born and is a direct continuation of the Ximhungwe pride. Unlike Gingerella she wasnt some subadult that was kicked out of a pride that still exist. The dynamic between the two started likely more as a mother and daughter one than two equals. 

That being said. I would strongly oppose to her suddenly being referred to as young Ximhungwe lioness. As that would be erasing her history and be hugely confusing. 
Sadly that seems to be what has happened to Nym. And I fear it has more to do with Birmingham fanboyism than actual care for the poor lion.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 03-08-2023

(03-08-2023, 10:26 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:
(03-08-2023, 12:33 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions don't get sexual education, so they dont really connect childbirth with sex. Nor do they have a concept of time. 
So whichever coalition that happens to be around to when the cubs are introduced isn't going to count back the months to see if they could be the father. 

Its more likely going to depend on whether or not they are willing or able to form an emotional connection with the cubs.

She may luck out and every male ends up accepting the cubs. 
Though most likely the cubs end up having the scent of the male that they are first introduced to. Resulting in the other males rejecting them when they come around. 

I am not optimistic about their chances.


Your continual use of 'sex' in relation to animals sounds a bit inappropriate and out-of-place.  In addition, you have used 'horny' even.  These words are used for humans on an informal level (wouldn't even use them on boards such as these in reference to people.  It's because we are not on THAT familiar terms around unknown posters, and feels weird all-around), and we wouldn't usually use these words for lions or any other animals.  Most would use terms like 'mate', 'estrous,' 'in heat, etc.'   It's also part of anthropomorphizing animals unobjectively. I remember someone else calling you out on this, too. 

Potato Potato. Sex is sex, regardless whether its called mating or otherwise and horny is just what people call the state of sexual arousal. (Which is different from estrous btw as that refers to the entire fertile period of a lioness and not just the aroused moments before mating.) At best its a semantic argument. 

As for anthropomorphizing. That is something entirely different as I never stated that they desire to live like a human would and form typical human families etc.. It would be different if I used terms like honeymoon or marriage like some documentaries tend to do. But we are talking here about such basic emotions or activities that there isnt much of a species barrier there. I agree we have to be carefull with using terms like love though. 


Quote:Studies have shown male lions know subconsciously about how long a pregnancy should take and if the lionesses do not time their births very well, the males might not be fooled.  I'm not sure how savvy these 2 lionesses are to be hanging out so easily with 3 different coalitions and expecting all of them to believe they are 100% the sires, but that is essentially what they will try to accomplish.  They could very well have played a winning game if they know the males' characters and timed it quite convincingly.  Will be exciting to see how it all ends up once the cubs make their arrival.
True, there probably is some instinct that tells a male lion to care more for specific cubs that might be his based on how the seasons have progressed. But its not like they can consciously count back the weeks and figure out things that way like we can. 
In normal circumstances this is enough as takeovers don't happen that frequent and the time between a take over and the first cubs showing up can vary immensly. So being a month off is not that big of an issue. 

But in the current situation with the ximhungwe pride. Its just not accurate enough for them to work it out.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Hairy tummy - 03-09-2023

(03-08-2023, 12:33 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions don't get sexual education, so they dont really connect childbirth with sex. Nor do they have a concept of time. 
So whichever coalition that happens to be around to when the cubs are introduced isn't going to count back the months to see if they could be the father. 

Its more likely going to depend on whether or not they are willing or able to form an emotional connection with the cubs.

She may luck out and every male ends up accepting the cubs. 
Though most likely the cubs end up having the scent of the male that they are first introduced to. Resulting in the other males rejecting them when they come around. 

I am not optimistic about their chances.
I'm sure I read that 45% of cubs are brought up by males which are not actually the father/fathers.be interested to know if that's actually true

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tonpa - 03-09-2023

It is but its location specific, they found that in Etosha but in the Serengeti things were the opposite, not sure if there's any paternity studies for the greater Kruger. 


In Etosha 
"Paternity analysis
Resident pride male tenure was known during the birth year of 34 of 43 cubs present in the Etosha population ). Our genetic data confirmed that a pride male was the sire of 20 of the 34 (59%) assignments. The remaining 14 cubs were sired by a male that was not a resident of the natal pride and were considered to be extra-group paternities (41%). For these fourteen extragroup assignments, all pride males mismatched the candidate cubs at two or more loci. Paternity was analysed in 22 litters in the study population, and EGP (extra-group paternity) occurred in ten. Four (18%) of the 22 were mixed paternity litters, where multiple males sired cubs in the same litter, and each mixed litter had at least one extra-group sire." - Lyke 2013


In the Sergengeti 
"For each of 78 cubs parentage determination was unequivocal and in each paternal implication the father was a resident male for the pride. In all cases but one, the mother identified by DNA fingerprinting was one of several pride females implicated by behavioral observations. (The exceptional cub was born within the same pride to another female.) In 23 of 24 litters a single male was the father for the entire litter despite the fact that females often accept multiple copulatory partners during estrus. In general, DNA fingerprinting verified maternal associations and mating success of resident males and also appears to provide a robust measure of parentage even when the candidate mothers or fathers are closely related." - Gilbert 1991


The reason for this is coalition size differences between the regions, there were more single dominant males in the prides studied in Etosha vs Seregeti. Would be interesting to know how many single male prides in the greater Kruger have mixed paternity offspring.

"In the Etosha lion population, of the five prides where EGP occurred, two had only one resident male, and two shared three males between them. This suggests that the males may have been unable to monopolize the sexual encounters of all females within their prides. All prides where EGP was not found had more than one resident pride male. While paternity studies of the Serengeti have not demonstrated EGP, all prides reported in the Serengeti have at least two adult males. The Selous population, where EGP has been suggested based on relatedness estimates, also has prides with only one resident male and prides that share males (Spong et al. 2002). These findings provide evidence that pride structure is an important determinant of EGP in some populations" - Lyke 2013

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - RookiePundit - 03-09-2023

(03-08-2023, 01:49 PM)veritas Wrote: Wait, I'm a little confused right now.
BYM was a friend of Mhangeni bigboy?
Is it Nkuhuma young male?
Isn't BYM about five years old?

BYM - Birmingham Young Male (born into the Birmingham pride) - now with Torchwood Young Male (sired by Birmingham coalition into the Torchwood pride) as a coaition of two in Timbavati. Sometimes (was) called Osindile by people on the internet.
NYM - Nkuhuma Young Male (sired by Birminghams, born into Nkuhuma pride) - now in western sector of Sabi Sands.
SYM - Styx Youn Male (sired by Birminghams, born into Styx pride) - joined up with NYM, now deceased.

Mhageni Big Boy was of similar age as NYM.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 03-09-2023

I dont think there are. But if we apply the findings to Sabi Sands we can make a rough guess.

There currently are a lot of single males in the north. So future litters from there will likely have a high EGP. 
Though a few years back, when bigger coalitions were more numerous the EGP of litters sired back then probably was lower. While staying a more constant low in the south as things are calmer there with larger groups guarding the prides.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 03-09-2023

(03-08-2023, 02:21 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: They still might see those cubs as theirs, but even if they dont see cubs as theirs, killing cubs of your enemies, in their territory , outnumbered, is pretty much direct challenge, which neither of them want.

I think killing a cub isn't really what sets territorial males off. If you come in roaring and scent marking going straight for the pride trying to kill cubs, you'll get a big response from territorial males. Sneakily killing a cub without a challenge doesn't exactly register with territorial males so you won't get a response any worse than any random nomadic male in their territory.