(08-30-2023, 10:01 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: Any info on if tinya found her two lost cubs?

(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.

WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.

Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.

(09-01-2023, 02:18 AM)Mdz123 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.

WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.

Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.

So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc

(06-08-2022, 07:51 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Other younger Mhangeni female seems to be limping, is that old limp? I remember her being injured quite some time ago

(09-01-2023, 03:15 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 02:18 AM)Mdz123 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.

WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.

Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.

So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc

And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 03:15 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 02:18 AM)Mdz123 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.

WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.

Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.

So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc

And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.

they also were involved in the inbreeding

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

im confused how so?   can you elaborate?  how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma?  or TW for that matter?


is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides?   cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.

(09-01-2023, 10:13 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

im confused how so?   can you elaborate?  how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma?  or TW for that matter?


is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides?   cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.

Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males

(09-02-2023, 01:31 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 10:13 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

im confused how so?   can you elaborate?  how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma?  or TW for that matter?


is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides?   cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.

Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males

Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.

The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that  particular Birmingham mates with.    Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.  

In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila.   And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu.    Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.

(09-02-2023, 01:31 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 10:13 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

im confused how so?   can you elaborate?  how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma?  or TW for that matter?


is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides?   cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.

Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males

Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.

The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that  particular Birmingham mates with.    Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.  

In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila.   And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu.    Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.

(09-02-2023, 02:07 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-02-2023, 01:31 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 10:13 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 09:19 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride

im confused how so?   can you elaborate?  how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma?  or TW for that matter?


is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides?   cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.

Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males

Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.

The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that  particular Birmingham mates with.    Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.  

In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila.   And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu.    Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.

You can’t consider one inbreeding and not the other they both are they are related and mating doesn’t matter how closely related It’s inbreeding and I just read today that the reason there aren’t many cubs in the pride are because of mandevu and ncile BUT that is close inbreeding and Birmingham males it’s not closely related inbreeding but it’s still inbreeding you can’t say it’s not when they came from the same pride and have the same mothers and aunts all that kinda stuff that we don’t know but can 100% assume

(09-01-2023, 03:15 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:

(09-01-2023, 02:18 AM)Mdz123 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.

WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.

Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.

So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc

And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.