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Freak Specimens - Printable Version

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RE: Freak Specimens - Roflcopters - 06-30-2014

Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-30-2014

(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

It's interesting, and in a way fortunate, these 272+ kg males weren't hunted and logged in the 20th century. From a small sample size, we have the 272+ kg Nepalese males, and 250+ kg Madla on official scientific record. Was Madla's chest girth and length ever recorded? Just based on neck girth, he could've approached 300 kg comparing his measurement to Sauraha, even without taking into account any allometry.

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 06-30-2014

(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

 

Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot

 

RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-30-2014

(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


 

Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot

 

 


I bet that Wagdoh must have a very bulky skull as well.
 

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 06-30-2014

Imagine Waghdoh Head girth and neck girth!
I bet that neck would break all records.

 

RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-30-2014

(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

 

Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot

 


Another organization (tiger awareness from UK) had B2, his smaller father, estimated at 300 kg (overestimate to me). 220-230 kg sounds like an underestimate to me at the same time. Rofl seems to know the most eye witnesses, we should get his take on it.

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014

(06-30-2014, 11:44 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote:
(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all. 

[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


 

Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot

 

 


Another organization (tiger awareness from UK) had B2, his smaller father, estimated at 300 kg (overestimate to me). 220-230 kg sounds like an underestimate to me at the same time. Rofl seems to know the most eye witnesses, we should get his take on it.

 

It is said that B2 was smaller than B3 for sure, and B3 was the most dominate, and B1 took over chargers territory and defeated the aging king, so he may have well been more dominate than B2 as well. All three where big but B3 was the king. Check out the pick of B3 asserting his dominance over B2 in the Tiger directory.


Read the thread on Wild cat expierence,

We have two very informed members here who are both eye witnesses of Bamera and one has seen waghdoh in person.
Both specifically stated Bamera as being around the 220kg range and not the 300kg claims that they heard before seeing him.

Both Pantherinae and Jubatus say

"I was a little disapointed with the size of bamera who was said to be a "300" kg tiger, but how would you compare them up against eachother? My dad says wagdoh was a massive tiger!"

 
"I was also a little dissapointed by Bamera`s size, but Wagdoh is big , Bamera is not even comparable! Your dad`s description of 240-260 kg seems to fit him just about right, its my estimates aswell! "


And here Pantherinae tells about the largest lions and tigers he has seen and how they comapred

"Notch's biggest son was no way near the size of the koning male, a big very unkown male I saw in Krüger. I have seen two big tigers T-24 and bamera, bamera was very bulky but not very long I had expected more of him, but still a massive beast, but not 300 kg which is a faritale weight for any wild cat. T-24 was longer I would have put those in around the same weight catagory. So in my case the lion was a little bigger. The notch boys where again a little smaller than the two tigers. 

My dad however has seen wagdoh. And he said he was bigger than the koning male lion. Atleast he would have weighed more. He always has described him as massive! I hope aswell to see wagdoh soon! 
and lastly here are his estimates for all...
"Well it's sad that we can only estimate the weight of Madla, but sure a massive tiger! My dad has seen alot of tigers and lions, and he said following weights on animals in his estimates, all notch boys where between 185-210 kg, B2: 210-220 kg (he said he was massive, but extremly short), T-24: 220-235, bamera: 225-240 kg, koning male 230-245 kg, and he said wagdoh where maybe 240-260 kg. 

KZT-023 is a massive beast, but he is a little, fat! He is looking like a very big framed tiger, but his hips do look a little thin. I have seen even more impressive tigers from Kaziranga ( but that's on camera traps, and thats a little hard to estimate size from)! They are definatly the biggest cats alive, but still 300 seem a little to much IMO, but who knows if they exists that's probably in Kaziranga. "


Pantherinae also works with 255kg lion, Aslan and the siberians there as well.

http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-experience-with-wild-cats


Check out the first couple of pages, it is a very cool topic with interesting info. 

RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 07-01-2014

Yes I have read the interesting thread and know the whole B brothers saga. Tigerawareness.co.uk are also very informed, but that doesn't mean their estimate is accurate either is all I'm saying. A few cm shorter (length and height) Bengal tiger (not Amur) is often as heavy or even heavier than the larger framed lion. That's why I like to see many different eye-witness accounts. Hopefully Rofl has more to share.

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014

(07-01-2014, 02:45 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Yes I have read the interesting thread and know the whole B brothers saga. Tigerawareness.co.uk are also very informed, but that doesn't mean their estimate is accurate either is all I'm saying. A few cm shorter (length and height) Bengal tiger (not Amur) is often as heavy or even heavier than the larger framed lion. That's why I like to see many different eye-witness accounts. Hopefully Rofl has more to share.

 
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.
Nobody said Bamera was small, he is a large cat, larger than any of the Notch Lions which are large Lions, but he was not the 300kg Tiger to be claimed. Two eye witnesses who have seen him both said the same thing, and anybody who has seen Bamera and Waghdoh always says waghdoh is far larger, its not even close.
I think 220-230kg is a very fair estimate for a Tiger that is not particularly tall or long. Pictures are very hard to estimate for tigers, sometimes animals look smaller or larger than they are. Taking eye witness accounts from people who can actually compare is a far more reliable way of finding their true size. IMO


 

RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 07-01-2014

I am not saying Bamera is 300 kg, rather I said the eye witness account (tigerawareness.co.uk) claiming that was an overestimate. I am saying that for weight, with all due respect for our posters here and the tigerawareness organization, eye witness accounts from 2 or 3 people shouldn't be taken as gospel, especially when you have two extremes. It is common knowledge that those who have seen Wagdoh claim he is out of the size range of the other alpha males of India, I don't know why you're thinking I'm saying otherwise when I've never mentioned Wagdoh. 

On topic:
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/05/06/alaska-hunter-bags-world-record-grizzly-bear/


*This image is copyright of its original author


No weight, just a record breaking skull of 27 and 6/16th inches. Unfortunate this guy fell victim to ruthless "sport," I hope his genes have enough of a foothold.

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014

(07-01-2014, 03:33 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: I am not saying Bamera is 300 kg, rather I said the eye witness account (tigerawareness.co.uk) claiming that was an overestimate. I am saying that for weight, with all due respect for our posters here and the tigerawareness organization, eye witness accounts from 2 or 3 people shouldn't be taken as gospel, especially when you have two extremes. It is common knowledge that those who have seen Wagdoh claim he is out of the size range of the other alpha males of India, I don't know why you're thinking I'm saying otherwise when I've never mentioned Wagdoh. 

On topic:
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/05/06/alaska-hunter-bags-world-record-grizzly-bear/


*This image is copyright of its original author


No weight, just a record breaking skull of 27 and 6/16th inches. Unfortunate this guy fell victim to ruthless "sport," I hope his genes have enough of a foothold.

 


Nice image.
I am using Waghdoh because he is suggested to be between the 260-300kg range and is substantially larger than Bamera, and quoted as such. Not just from the two eye witnesses here, but from 3-4 other eye witnesses as well. So it is probably likely that Waghdoh has a 40-80kg weight advantage over Bamera and would probably put bamera around that range.
Could you post some of the quotes on bamera from tigerawarenss?
Thanks Tigerluver
 

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014


*This image is copyright of its original author

This guy does mention that he thought Bamera was huge until me saw waghdoh.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Biggest Tiger I ever saw!

This is the biggest male tiger I've ever seen and was also one of the most elusive ones on my last trip to Kaziranga in March'11...... took almost 2 hours of tracking very patiently before I got a shot of it in the last of the evening light....  
*This image is copyright of its original author
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RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 07-01-2014

http://www.tigerawareness.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tiger_conservation_2010.pdf

They talked about B2 (rest in peace [img]images/smilies/sad.gif[/img]). From there you can reference Bamera by what people say about him.

Wagdoh is indeed a monster and as I said before probably the largest tiger in India. This is probably not going to happen, but do you know of any eye-witnesses of both Wagdoh and Madla or Hairyfoot? That's the best reference point for us. Madla probably weighed around 270 kg. From reliable hunting records 320 kg is the max for Bengals in my opinion. It's interesting that captive Bengal tigers struggle to get past the 250 kg mark.

 

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014

(07-01-2014, 04:06 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: http://www.tigerawareness.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tiger_conservation_2010.pdf

They talked about B2 (rest in peace [img]images/smilies/sad.gif[/img]). From there you can reference Bamera by what people say about him.

Wagdoh is indeed a monster and as I said before probably the largest tiger in India. This is probably not going to happen, but do you know of any eye-witnesses of both Wagdoh and Madla or Hairyfoot? That's the best reference point for us. Madla probably weighed around 270 kg. From reliable hunting records 320 kg is the max for Bengals in my opinion. It's interesting that captive Bengal tigers struggle to get past the 250 kg mark.

 

 
I wish!!!
But from the tigers that come out of Panna and Assam, I would assume that Madla/Hairyfoot are probably just as large as Waghdoh.

Captive bengals are notoriously less spectacular in Captivity compared to Amurs who are notoriously larger in captivity.
Very strange indeed, but some of the Captive pure bred bengals in India and others are actually pretty large and close to the average size of their wild counterparts. But all in all, no captive cat will ever match a wild one. They may weigh more, but it is a combanation of muscle and fat, their body dimensions are no larger I believe. But you will always tell the difference between a wild 250kg Tiger or Lion and a captive one.

I would be curious as to Panterinae's input.
He works with Aslyan a 255kg Lion and has seen the a lion in which he thought was every bit as big as Aslyan. He will have more input on body differences between wild and captive cats.


 

RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-01-2014

Thanks for that PDF.
I wish they would of compared Bamera to B2. That way if he is the same size as B2 we could of gotten a idea. They do estimate him at 300kg which is makes it a little harder to take his size estimations as serious. But still very interesting read.
TFS